Last weekend, for no special reason other than because I felt like it, I began to write a Vinnie de Soth novel. So far I’m 23,500 words into a manuscript that’ll need to be 60,000-100,000 words long. If it turns out well I’ll consider submitting it for publication.

Now I’m still trying to find my way with this story. That’s often the case with my first drafts of long stories; they tend to change radically – and expand – during my second pass. This is especially true for Vinnie’s book, since I’m having to decide where to pitch the tone (somewhere between Parodyverse and Stephen King) and how much of Vinnie’s PV mythos to port across.

My general rule of thumb on tone so far has been that Vinnie as a character remains pretty much the same. I don’t really make too much distinction between his “voice” in this novel and the usual babble-with-occasional-deadly-serious-moments stuff I’ve used here. However, the humour is shaded down; there’s quipping and some comedy but on the whole the tale’s a bit darker and closer to what someone might expect a novel about demons and demon-hunters would be.

The problem is that its hard to write “scary” stories at the best of times. Too many authors mistake unpleasant for scary. I can sometimes manage to provoke a shiver but rarely in a story that also has fantasy and whimsy. I need to decide what I’m aiming for and aim for it.

The world the story’s set in is a bit more “normal” than Vinnie’s previous haunt too. The story’s set in a place where superheroes don’t exist, aliens aren’t acknowledged, and vampires and magic are (wrongly) thought to be myth. For convenience’s sake I’ve moved Vinnie and his office to Soho, London.

The next set of choices I had to make were about the cast of the story. To shift Vinnie more-or-less whole out of the Parodyverse and into his own stand-alone world required him to take some folks with him. My rule here has obviously had to be that only characters I’ve created and primarily written are available, and of those only the ones that aren’t simply renamed versions of actual comic-book cast members.

Vinnie really requires the de Soth clan to be around, so that he’s got a family to be thrown out of. Although they may not play too big a part in this novel I’m assuming they’re around in the backstory. They may be relevant in a sequel. And with the De Soths comes the other Nine Great Houses, the mystical “royalty” of the occult underworld – the Anankés (including Pandemonica, Vinnie’s ex-fiancée), Hertzogs Incantantrixes, Harrows, the Coriomundis, Morgolath, and the Rouges. Sadly the del Lunes and the Darknesses had to stay behind because they’re not mine to walk off with.

Likewise Urthula and her wicked uncle have made the jump, albeit under different less silly names. The Ghouls Under Gothametropolis are under St Paul’s Cathedral now. Mac Fleetwood’s mission is in South London. Mr Lye has a laundry in Limehouse and it still has a cast of interesting misfits needing redemption; only Ruby Waver has needed to be replaced. Then there’s the Rakshasa Court, the Flensing Man, the Astral Khan, the Westminster Necropolis Company, the Guild of Lycanthropes...

I’m vacillating on appropriating Grace O’Mercy for two reasons. Technically I first wrote her, as a throwaway hostage in an Untold Tales, and I suggested her name in an online chat, but it was Al B. who decided to pen Night Nurse #1. I then offered Night Nurse #2 which revealed Grace was actually a vampire and established much of her unique status quo; but I remain unsure about this one. Also, Grace O’Mercy is a bit of an unrealistic name but I’m struggling to find a replacement that fits the character anything like as well.

Obviously Vinnie can’t take Liu Xi with him, so I’ve turned the problem into an opportunity and created a new female lead who turns up as a client and drives the whole plot of the book. Vizh will like her; she’s had a tough life and people have done her wrong but she’s smart and plucky. You can get Vizh with that formula every single time.

As for villains, scene four reveals a hidden vault under a London landmark that seems to imprison an armoured figure wrapped in chains…

Anyhow, my reason for mentioning all this is to take views from you all on where to go from here. First off, do folks think it’s okay for me to plunder my Parodyverse writing and character store (some of which in turn have been borrowed from earlier writing I’ve done)? Are there ethical or legal issues I’ve overlooked? Secondly, any advice on tone and technique? Thirdly, how well or badly do you think the situations and cast might translate to a stand-alone novel?

Reply to the thread or e-mail me using the button on the board.

IW

1. Of course. Why wouldn't it be? You created them.
2. If you consider "Grace O' Mercy" to be a bit too on the nose, you might also want to change the name of Mac Fleetwood.
3. I'm sure it would translate fine. To be honest his adventures would probably make more sense in a world that isn't a mash up of superhero satire.

I would echo what Killer Shrike said - that you should probably change the names of Mac Fleetwood, both because he's recognizable here, and also his name is a parody of a music group; Mr Lye (there are other ingredients in detergent!) because he's recognizable from here as well; and Westminster Necropolis Company because, oddly enough it's too close to the name of an ACTUAL company (the London Necropolis Company of Westminster). I kid you not on that last one.

Also isn't the Chain Knight too closely related to the Hellraiser franchise?

As for Liu Xi Xian here in the Parodyverse - I implied for quite a while in replies on the board that I half expected Vinnie De Soth to someday up and disappear in the middle of their relationship with no explanation, like he fell through a hole in the universe and vanished. Perhaps now's a good time for that - and whether the Hooded Hood is involved depends only on whether you want his name to not be used. He could be useful for making sure everyone forgets Vinnie's name, though there might be other reasons too.

For instance, I can think of a particularly dark story involving some bad guy managing to disappear Vinnie so well that even his name is gone, and before the good guys can retrieve Vinnie and his name, the bad guy is killed, making it impossible to retrieve both.

On a personal note, I'd be a little sad to see Vinnie go, but being that I'm one of the last few active readers here I can't in good conscience justify holding him here when he can be exposed to a larger audience (and his writer exposed to that also, as well as more money). I'm also a little envious that characters I've created, overall, have been seeing only declining success as the audience here shrinks and as my ability to move to a larger audience weakens.

Meanwhile, though, a question about the PVB for you and everyone:

I think, to continue, the PV might need a renewed cast at some point, sourced mostly from created characters rather than poster-characters. While it was founded on poster-characters, those posters simply aren't writing their characters anymore. And worse yet, quite a few of them are being retired and/or pulled because those posters don't want their namesakes continued without their presence. This is definitely a disadvantage of having real people's names rolled into fictional characters - often when the posters move on to places or careers where they don't want to get fired over a Google search, they'll try and disassociate their real names from the PVB. These possibilities currently hover over at least half of the Lair Legion.

So what do you think? Should we re-build the PV in a way that prevents embarrassing real people by transitioning to new entirely-fictional characters?

Then again, it's possible I'm thinking completely wrong. It's possible these poster-characters are leaving and shutting down their namesakes in the hopes it will cause the Parodyverse to discontinue in their absence; i.e. that they believe they are founding members and it should not continue without them. In a way, I can see that point too; if I create a universe, and decide to walk away someday, I might feel a little annoyed if other people are still writing it and using the characters long after I'm gone.

Do you think that may be a possibility? That me and those few of us still writing for the PV are going against the tide, against the wishes of its founders?

I'm all for it, myself. I look forward to reading the results.





I'm not aware of any, but then I'm no legal expert.






This one is a tougher issue for me. Personally, I enjoy the comedic tone of the Parodyverse, and while I certainly understand the need to tone down the zanier aspects of it I'd hate to see it jettisoned altogether. I'm not really one for horror novels, so I can't give advice on scary writing... I don't recall reading anything that outright scared me.

Now, with horror films, I know quite a few that I liked that mixed comedy (even goofy comedy) with horror... from Sam Raimi's horror films to Peter Jackson's The Frighteners to things like Fright Night, House and even Buffy the Vampire Slayer (series). It can be a quite effective way to modulate the tension over the course of a work, and humor remains the best way (in my opinion) to endear characters to an audience, which makes all the difference in getting the audience to care if they get away from that axe weilding psycho or not.




I think they should work quite well, myself. I might caution against throwing every concept you've listed here into the work at once... but that's just something to consider, rather than advice I firmly think you should follow.

That's an interesting point. On the other hand it's rapidly becoming evident to me that the cluttered chaotic and very bizarre world that Vinnie inhabits are neccessary parts of his paradigm. Without them he's just a blabbermouthed Kolchak.

I toyed with posting a section here as an example but I think I'd prefer to finish the thing and do a second draft before I show just how unready for reading this thing is.













As it turned out, Vinnie's meeting with Claire (the aforementioned ingenue) became one massively long scene, the longest I've ever written as continuous prose. It covered around twelve hours from their first meeting and most of it was conversation and interaction (with a couple of monster attacks). When I read it back it was clear that I needed to intercut it with some other stuff, including some actual events and something that didn't require the reader to go to page 40 before any threat appeared.

I therefore did what I tend to do with Untold Tales with this problem and intercut another narrative where the major threat unfolded, so there's two stories going that eventually crash together. Inevitably the non-Vinnie strand is a bit darker than the Vinnie one, not least because the only surviving protagonist in it so far is Tanner.

When I'm a bit further in I'll have to check that the two strands don't have incompatable tones.




Actually, Buffy's not a bad tone example to aspire to for this.







That's the big problem I have to face. I think probably Vinnie's "unique selling point" is the weird Addams-family type world he dwells in, complete with scholar ghouls and unpleasant relatives and werewolf guilds and the whole underworld infrastructure. Without that he's a bit generic really. So while I want to avoid a huge info-dump and lumping so much in there that suspension of disbelief becomes impossible I also want to stick with what makes Vinnie interesting to me.

You've pinpointed one of the areas I'm struggling with though.

"Mac" is a nickname given because of the band.

Lye or Li is a play on worlds for Lie, as in untruth, and there's a whole story reason for that pseudonym that I've never got round to telling. In the Parodyverse I refer to him as Mr Li and I think I might go back to that for the novel.

I know about the London Necropolis Company, that fine Victorian firm that owned various major cemetaries and dominated the undertaking world. They even operated their own funereral railway trains, complete with black crepe and plumes, to specially built railway stations within their cementaries (one for Anglicans, one for Catholics, and one for non-conformists like methodists and Baptists). When I first used them as inspiration for villains I actually called them the London Necropolis Company; Westminster Necropolis Company is me trying to change the name to avoid a real-life institution.




I've never seen the Hellraiser movies so I wouldn't know.

In actual fact the five members of the PV Hellraisers team were all loosly inspired by the creatures in an old video game called Dungeon Keeper. Amongst the various creatures available for deployment are the Knight, the Dungeon Mistress, the Bile Demon (a vile obsese farting creature), the Vampire, and the feral Horned Reaper. When I wanted a pack of monsters I re-dressed some of these to offer backgrounds, powers, and motives. I hope that what I did with them was sufficiently original to move them far away from their original jokey source.

Sir Lucian, the Chain Knight, was the one that was most original. His inspiration in the game was simply a knight in armour. The prehensile chains, the bloody armour, the abilities with locks and bonds, his origin and everything else were all from me.




I didn't mean to imply my intention to remove Vinnie from the Parodyverse. I know some authors prefer to do that with their creations but I think with Vinnie that ship has sailed. He's here and he's staying. His alternate-reality self can star in a book in another part of the multiverse. Likewise the various other characters I mentioned as accompanying him are still around in the PV and available for use. Hell, if I took all my characters home I'd be wandering off with a fair old percentage of the total cast.

As far as I'm concerned, providing nobody's making a profit off my work, Vinnie and the rest are like every other PV character, free for people to write about on the Parodyverse board. As his creator I presumably get some say in how he's used, in the same way I try to accord other creators control over how I use their characters. Other than that, all the characters here probably get covered by that provision in copyright law about use of characters for parody purposes anyhow.







We're suffering from low turnout, that's for sure. But I didn't mean to imply I'm taking anything away from the PV, including myself of occasional Vinnie stories.







I think it's impossible to erase e-trails these days. The Wayback Machine and other old webpage storage sites still hold some PV tales going right back to Baron Zemo's Lair. The Avengers Message Board archives for around September 98 still contain some of the very first stories.

I'm relatively comfortable with us retiring poster characters after their poster has vanished for a while. I usally try to make it permanent enough to explain why Character X isn't rushing in to the rescue during the maximum crisis but not so irrevocable that they can't miraculously return if their poster rediscovers and interest.




I think it's organic. If you look at the "regular" cast from even five years ago it's different from the characters getting the emphasis today. I don't think we're quorate enough or organised enough or prolific enough to shape things in any more planned way.

Of the current crop of active poster-characters, the only ones whose posters aren't around too much now are: Lisa, Donar, Hatman, G-Eyed, Nats, Sorceress, Xander. All of these are posters who "stay in touch", either by occasional postings or through association with one or more active posters. All of them have expressed a willingness to have their characters continue to appear in the Parodyverse.

The other recent change is that for the first time I've written in a Lair Legion line-up that includes two characters from a single poster (me and you) and a couple of non-poster characters.

In other words, the changes you suggest are probably happening naturally.







I think these founders would have to express preferences.

An example would be Scott. A decade ago, as Amazing Guy, Scott was probably our most prolific and enthusiastic poster. Later, getting the novel-writing bug, he decided to stop using some of his characters in the Parodyverse - the vampire children Annabelle and Roland, Justin Tyme, and maybe others. He asked that these characters not be used any more. He also asked that other of his characters, Amazing Guy and Trickshot, be retired; fortunately I had a Parody War that could help with that.

Now we can't physically erase every reference made to Scott's characters without deleting roughly 60% of everything that was written during the Scott years. Nor would Scott expect it. All we can do is respect his wishes regarding the characters and keep things as open as possible so that if Scott gets bitten by the PV bug once more he can slip back in.

Yes. As you know from previous correspondence I'm waiting for that Mumphrey novel from you too. Of course a gothic magic novel would be very 'now'. So the time is right.





None that I am aware of. And for what it is worth you have my permission and blessing to use whatever ideas from the 'De Lune family' stuff you need if you like, even the name. And of course Grace O'Malley/Night Nurse too. I gave an unnamed nurse a voice but you gave her a vampire bent that fits in nicely to the gothic noir style that suits a stand alone Vinnie mythos. I'm happy to put that out there in a public post like this so you can give it to your lawyers. Go for it Ian! Just make sure I get an invite to the film premier. And promise me you will never write that she smells of rainbows.




Hmm, a difficult question. Certainly noir horror (whatever that is) and gothic spring to mind, and I think focusing on Vinnie as a young man without resorting to a 'tween romance novel in the guise of a horror novel' is my advice. Not that I suspect that is where you would go anyway. Fast paced action. I know you love the interwoven plots and that is great, but don't let it get bogged down!




Easily, and well. It's a nifty idea. The mythos is sound and I'm sure your stand-alone mythos will be even tighter.

I think I'd enjoy reading about Vinnie in a world where he stands alone.




I think I know who that is! But that also reminds me of your AVENGERS plot you started writing that long time ago - and there were aspects of the 'horror' in that which I think worked well if you're worried about finding the tone.

Anyway, this is exciting!! Keep us posted as to how it goes.

Al B.

Even if that's true, the RIAA may not be so understanding.





That might work, since it's a fairly common name people will have to think about to get.





Noted.








You should really watch the first Hellraisers movie before using any reference to them. Like Nightmare on Elm Street, the production company is very protective of the still-lucrrative franchise.





It's possible Hellraisers ripped off from the game - but now they practically own the franchise, and still sell toys.





I do remember one of the Hellraisers characters used chains with meathooks on them. No armor though.





I admit as late at night as I posted that reply, I assumed since you were publicly posting your notice, you were warning us all to stop using Vinnie for now.









That last part was direct from me more than a generality. I guess I'm discovering that I like writing, but the *quality* of it seems to be audience-driven. The better the response, the more I'm motivated to include more detail. If I'm just posting to try to keep the PVB alive, I tend to keep the stories shorter and quicker moving.

Unfortunately, the latter doesn't make good practice for decent writing. So I'm lamenting a bit that the low turnout is making me *less* capable of producing publish-worthy writing, and practice-wise I'm becoming less and less capable of maintaining the quality necessary. So now I'm a little envious because of the hole I've fallen into while others are finding the success I feel like I'm now far, far away from.

That feeling also is because I get the sense that for half of the tiny audience here, my stories, or style, or use of characters, or just that it's me posting it, does not motivate them to read or reply or stick around despite my somewhat frequent posting. That, for lack of better reasoning, tells me I don't quite have the magic necessary to draw an audience, which is necessary for real success.





I agree that it's organic, what I meant is because we're losing people *now*, perhaps the process needs to be accelerated a bit. Right now we're stuck in an awful cycle where as the poster-characters are forcibly retired, and no new ones are added, the cast is shrinking. As the cast shrinks, we lose more poster-characters. See where this is headed?

I think if more non-poster-characters are added - and Visionary has provided quite a few, Al B Harper a couple, etc, so I know posters can do this - the stories will no longer be strangled by a restrictively small cast. Posters may stop by from time to time to see how their fictional creation is doing even though they don't have a personal stake in the characters' names anymore.

Then again, maybe I'm wrong, but that's what I think.





What I see in common among people who left seems to be (at least what I've seen) that this is a childlike place to be outgrown and left behind when it's time to "grow up" - i.e. get married, raise a family, get a real job, etc. Then again, there are some of us who refuse to grow up.

Then again, maybe people feel the need to "outgrow" the PV because it doesn't grow with them. A lot of the stories seem to be related to Marvel crossovers or Avengers. At the same time, when a lot of people reach a certain stage in life, they start to feel like reading Marvel comics isn't appropriate anymore - and consequently, the PV is the baby thrown out with the bathwater.

So it's great that the PVB has it's humorous namesake comedy/parody/dramatic stories, but maybe it also needs stuff that's darker, or even more humorous, or even far different - oddly enough like World Class, which I'm still struggling to draw an audience with. Or in short, stuff that people won't feel like reading it at work during a lunch break will get them fired.

The trick is figuring out what to post (and how to write it well), and how to draw in both the writers and the audience.

...is that I wouldn't be interested in a straight horror book (though if you wrote it I'd be willing to pick it up, but only because of the established relationship). If I knew that a book was a mix of horror and comedy, zany or otherwise, then I could be interested. Kind of like the Buffy television series I guess, poking fun at horror concepts but able to lay on the scary (as scary as network tv can get, anyway) as well.

~Hat~

Ian:

I can't help you on English law, but if you have a question about U.S. intellectual property law, I may be able to provide some advice--but not on an open board. E-mail me.
JJJ

That's kind but for now I'm going to concentrate on writing the story as time allows. I still write primarily for my own satisfaction, as a release from other stresses of work and life. It's nice that sometimes people have wanted to publish things I've written but that's not why I write.

If I don't finish the story, or if it turns out not to be very good, it'll never see the light of day anyhow.

Beyond that, if a publisher did decide to put it out there then its his editor's problem to determine what if any changes would need to be made to address any conflicts or concerns.

It's not unusual for a publisher to ask for a revised last draft based upon legal advice. Sometimes it's as simple as changing a fictional company's name or not quoting a copyrighted song (you have no idea how much trouble I had to go to to find a suitable big oil corportation name that wasn't already taken in fact or fiction). Other times it's a bit more fundamental, and that's where the dialogue between writer and publisher gets interesting.

On wider issues:

I know a few folks on the board have been advised that they need to keep a distance between themselves and "fan fiction" or to avoid other online writers' work to avoid charged of plagiarism, or to remove older online writing that might not "be up to scratch".

I've had a couple of editors try that on me too. My general view is that if they pay me a huge generous advance I'll think about making radical changes to my life and way or operating. Since so far all my royalties have been based on post-sales income that hasn't been an issue.

Besides, the line between online fiction and published fiction narrows every time someone buys a kindle. If a writer has to avoid other writers' work he'll never read another book in his life. And while I think I probably have improved as a writer over the last decade or so I'm not going to be ashamed of the fact I've worked hard to made those improvements in the only way any writer improves - by writing. So all those damn publishers and editors can get off my lawn.

I think the only kind of scare or horror that a Vinnie story can evince is when a fairly light moment suddenly twists. I'll see what I can do.

I like the Buffy analogy, but of course TV can do that juxtaposition earier than literature. TV can change mood from funny to scary using music or lighting or lots of other audiovisual tricks. Writing only gets words, and they're more difficult to use to say BOO!

They can go argue it out with my old schoolfriend and tell him his name's trademarked then.







I don't think I'd use the term "Hellraisers" for that reason. I haven't even decided yet whether the team members other than the Chain Knight will be in this volume.




I think there's a reasonable conceptual space between what I do with Lucian and anything others might portray; but I'll check into this.




That wouldn't be fair.




Sorry to bring up the issue of format again, but I've just had four months of my publisher talking about e-books to me. With the vast surge in Kindle sales and the like, the e-book market has suddenly become a more significant contributor to a literary work's income stream. I was a bit daunted when I found that my first book was on sale electronically for $3 or whatever it is but I have to admit it does somehow seem to have stimulated paper sales again too. Voodoo.

Anyhow, I wonder if this isn't the time for you to start writing or rewriting some of your First Class stuff with a view to e-publication once more. I think there's a dual market, with the episodic PVB chapters being like the monthly comics stand flimsies and an e-reader package being the TPB. The latter probably has added content and is a more edited and paced version, perhaps adjusted by episodic reader feedback.

And all of that in turn might inspire you to up your game.




I encourage everybody to add their own personal casts. I find having characters I can use, abuse, change and kill off without qualm very useful, and I think others would too.




I'm amazed the board has lasted this long. Most of these kinds of online associations have a finite lifespan. I thought we'd do well to make 5 years!




Many of the longer-term posters are those who came to the board in their "already settled" years and didn't have the disruption of discovering sex/college/first job/marriage/kids etc.




It's true that a whole lot of people who I first knew because they read the same comics I did have now turned their back on the hobby. Some of that is about changing life tastes; some I attribute to horrible comic company decisions and marketing.

I'm not sure what a Mumphrey novel might look like, or even what genre it might classify as.







Almost everything I write tends to get a romance in it somewhere, be it Caphans or forest outlaws or jobbing occultists. It's a cheap and easy way of getting the audience interested in a couple of characters and it allows for them to tell each other - and the reader - about themselves.

I agree with the fast paced action comment too. I'm a bit bothered that this particular volume doesn't have enough.




I thought it might be interesting. It's certainly making me stretch some writing muscles I've not used before.




Yes, there are a couple of villains from that who might translate across well.




Now that my holidays are over I think things might get a bit slower.

There's nothing to be sorry about. I like getting critiques and feedback about format - if someone could tell me if there's anything about the way I write, format, tell stories, etc, that turns off the reader, it helps me.

The only time I get a little annoyed about feedback is when I post a 4-part story, and I get to part 3, and someone tells me this tiny thing this one character did 3 chapters ago is wrong, and I should pull all of it down and re-write it to change that one thing.





I don't believe the story format I use for weekly posting would work at all for an e-book - I made that mistake once already, trying to staple together weekly portions with a little re-formatting and re-configuring into an ebook. I think I'd prefer re-writing the whole thing preserving only the characters and story.

There's two problems with that: It takes a lot of time, and the audience I presented it to originally - in the case of World Class - didn't seem interested. Like I said before, that makes me worried about investing the time when I'm possibly telling a story nobody cares about.

I use the PVB as a test market, and to see if the style and format changes I make are working.





I'd like it to, but I'm also worried it might inspire me to give up the game.





I should correct myself there; we all need a personal non-poster-character cast we're willing to walk away from. Admittedly, as much as I like Lara Night as a character, adding her was probably the biggest mistake I made. Because she has other places to be, she's sort of tethered to me, and most writers would be afraid to use her at all, let alone in my absence. I'm not saying I'm removing her from the field,. just that I didn't think it through. I did think through the World Class characters, which is why they aren't here.

Liu Xi Xian, Anna, Yuki Shiro, and the Psychic Samurai were all created with this place in mind. If something makes it so I can't participate here anymore, anyone writing here can pick up the three of them and put them in stories.








I think the quality of writing keeps it going. I don't know how mine fits in though.





Exactly.





From what I've seen with message boards in general, quite often it starts very subtly with someone taking a chunk out of leisure time for "family time", and then that balloons out a bit with things like playdates, days are the park, family vacations, etc. Then they get a job where reading the PVB is either frowned upon or not allowed due to firewall controls. Pretty soon they live in a world where the PVB is seen as the equivelent of sneaking a cigarette, and it's not worth the risk or the time to stop by anymore, and they've been gone so long anyway it's tough to get back in.

Whenever you think it's ready to be read, I'm interested.







If you haven't seen it before, I do highly recommend you watch "The Frighteners" by Peter Jackson. I think its probably the closest to the mix you're suggesting. It was something of a flop at theaters, in no small part due to that mix of tone between comedy and true horror, but it has a fair amount of fans who find a lot to admire in it, myself included.

The story is about a personable paranormal investigator played by Michael J. Fox who runs a con on the small town where he lives. It's not that he isn't psychic, rather it's that he's working with a crew of humorous ghosts to haunt people and then offer his services to remove the offending spirits. However, a truly monstrous spirit begins to prey on the people of the town, and what started out looking like a "Ghostbusters" kind of comedy goes to some really dark and scary places, while still maintaining a kind of pulp/comic book feel.


I think it would be worth your time to watch and reflect on what you felt worked for and against a proper balance between all of the elements in it. As for myself, I rate it highly although some of the humor isn't to my particular taste, but I feel the overall story is really well done, and I attribute its failure at the box office to the studio having no idea who to sell it to or how to sell it (people going into it based on the trailer below likely were scared and disturbed far beyond what they were expecting.) I believe the whole film is on YouTube if you can't find it elsewhere.







Obviously, as a fan of the Parodyverse, that's the big appeal to me as well. It's perhaps the same problem that Marvel deals with in working their way to the Avengers film. In "Iron Man 2" all of the SHIELD stuff was good for world building, but it felt very extraneous to the plot and ended up annoying much of the audience, but in Thor (I've finally added my own thoughts on it to the thread below) they did a much better job with it. Finding just the right balance may prove a challenge.

So I took a break to walk the dog around the block after writing this, and it was still running through my mind. What's interesting about the structure of this film is that it has the feel of being divided into three acts, each in their own genre:

Act One, the comedy: They wacky hijinks of Michael J. Fox and the dead, along the tone of Ghostbusters or Beetlejuice.

Act Two, the comic book adventure: There's an evil cloaked figure preying on the innocent, and our hero has to come to terms with the fact that, with his powers, he's the only one with a chance to stop it in a climactic battle.

Act Three, the horror film: It's not that easy as the horror stands revealed. To finally put an end to it will require our protagonists to take a mind trip through a chilling mass murder while scrambling for their lives through a dilapidated abandoned hospital.


It's definitely an interesting attempt to get from "Beetlejuice" to "The Shining" by transitioning through a hero film on the way. I think "Buffy" handles things by keeping to the first two acts and foregoing the third entirely... Had the battle between Michael J. Fox and the Reaper character resolved the matter, then it would have fit well within the tone of your average Buffy adventure (and probably had a much greater chance for being a commercial hit.)

Jackson, however, pushes further into unsettling territory, and there's a decided tonal shift as the monstrous spirit casts off the more theatrical, comic-book appearance into something more grounded and disturbing. I think the film loses a segment of the audience that was not prepared for an actual horror film to break out of this comedy-adventure they thought they signed up for, and I think horror fans didn't show up to the theater at all after the trailer suggested it was a toothless zany comedy.

These kinds of tonal transitions are easier to pull off in prose than they are on film, no doubt, as I find that the readers inject their own preferences and expectations of tone onto the characters and events to even out the overall work. There's less worry that an actor will play a part too broadly... The same scripted opening interaction between Urthula and Vinnie could be interpreted as witty, understated banter or broad sitcom style delivery depending on the actors and direction of a film, either one likely to upset the total balance of the piece. However, in the reader's mind these things tend to smooth over just fine as they form an evolving expectation of tone over the course of a work rather than a knee-jerk reaction to the first scene.

It's a fairly interesting challenge to go from one extreme to the other... I look forward to seeing you tackle it.

First off, do folks think it’s okay for me to plunder my Parodyverse writing and character store (some of which in turn have been borrowed from earlier writing I’ve done)? Are there ethical or legal issues I’ve overlooked?
 
I can't speak for the legal issues, but to my mind you have a perfect right to adapt your own earlier work (as you have already done bringing things to the board). As to using other people's characters - changed accordingly - so long as you have the creator's permission, not a problem. I think most of us here are more interested in seeing whatever you come up with.
(And - as I have noted in the past - any of my characters and situations are open for your use. Goodness knows you had a hand in creating most of them)
 
Secondly, any advice on tone and technique?
Personally, I would not be interested in straight horror. A balance between horror and humour would be good - although it would have to be somewhat more serious than the PVMB style. (The same sort of balance you had with the MHC novels and the Atlantis ones, for example).
 
Thirdly, how well or badly do you think the situations and cast might translate to a stand-alone novel?

Very well, I should think. You probably wouldn't want to stuff all the characters and situations in the first novel, of course, but the characters will transition just fine. You may even be able to give them a more detailed background and structure than they have here.

It would look awesome, that's what.

And you would create a new genre. It would be called "Watson".

You have the skeleton (and some of the muscle, skin and organs) of a Mumphrey series there already you know.

Better, head straight for Hollywood, and write a screenplay.




On reflection, she may overshadow Vinnie. So maybe best to keep her out, at least until the second series.








Jobbing Occultists? I'm so there.




My own are sadly quite deflated. I need a 'writing holiday'.




Yes, yes there are.




Pfft. No excuses. Get to work!

I don't see anything wrong with bringing some characters along for the ride and, though I am not sure what you'd need her for, if you want Sorceress for anything, please go for it! I would be honoured.

Hi guys!
Long time no story post!
Seriously I’m very happy to see other posters trying to make a go for the outer realm, and use some ideas in their own publishing endeavors. After all, that’s what’s happening to me.
This place is wonderful. It’s the sum total of many writers working together. No one person has the right to let it die. You have some great thoughts here and hard questions but I think it boils down to the fact that the PV can and should stand without individuals.

Keep it going, get new blood, use non-poster characters and have a ball. Rebuild it or even start over. I think this universe should stand the test of time.
Just my 2 cents.

Hey Ian,

Once again, congratulations on your successes. I always praised the heck out of your writing and insisted you share with the world. I’m glad you are. Many will be edified for your choice.
There isn’t much more I can say that others haven’t. If you have some great concepts for the publishing world, taking your sub-world of mystics into the broader realm, I think you should do it.
I don’t think there are ethical issues. They’re your characters. If you wrote a 900 thou. Word novel on Hatman or Visionary, you’d be wrong unless you got permission, but these characters you’re mentioning are all your creations. This is true for legal issues as well.
I do have one question; what if a publisher Googles the characters in the book and finds these stories? Would they be upset with that and not want to publish you? What if your book fans do the same and see these old PV stories? It would be great advertisement for the board, but they’d see a different version of your characters. Is that ok?
I had mine removed cause I didn’t want people to see my horrid writing. But your prose was better. Also, while it’s easy to wipe Ann and Roland from the board, it won’t be so easy to the same with your stuff.

This is NOT meant to discourage you. I just thought the points should be brought up.
Regardless, I still think you should forge ahead.

>I know a few folks on the board have been advised that they need to keep a distance between themselves and "fan fiction" or to avoid other online writers' work to avoid charged of plagiarism, or to remove older online writing that might not "be up to scratch".


Yeah... that would be me.

>I've had a couple of editors try that on me too. My general view is that if they pay me a huge generous advance I'll think about making radical changes to my life and way or operating. Since so far all my royalties have been based on post-sales income that hasn't been an issue.

>Besides, the line between online fiction and published fiction narrows every time someone buys a kindle. If a writer has to avoid other writers' work he'll never read another book in his life. And while I think I probably have improved as a writer over the last decade or so I'm not going to be ashamed of the fact I've worked hard to made those improvements in the only way any writer improves - by writing. So all those damn publishers and editors can get off my lawn.


Very true! I like this point of view. Thanks. I read others work all the time for my critique group. I also read for enjoyment.
Maybe I should stop being ashamed of my PV work and embrace it?

warlordkro 'at' gmail 'dot' com

I'm not aware of any legal or ethical potential wrongdoing.  Furthermore, why not:  it'd lend to the credibility of the old joint to have characters get published in novels from it. 

I'd do that with some of my work here but, um, I kinda doubt a Dark Knight novel would fly well.

With that said, once I finish my webisode series I'm writing and possibly directing, and writing my epic novel, I'd like to finish Final Act.

Just got word today that Sherlock Holmes: Consulting Detective vol 3, which is 1/4 by me, has been greenlighted by the publisher.

There isn’t much more I can say that others haven’t. If you have some great concepts for the publishing world, taking your sub-world of mystics into the broader realm, I think you should do it.
I don’t think there are ethical issues. They’re your characters. If you wrote a 900 thou. Word novel on Hatman or Visionary, you’d be wrong unless you got permission, but these characters you’re mentioning are all your creations. This is true for legal issues as well.

I've written a bit more now and I think my problems are more artistic than ethical now.

I do have one question; what if a publisher Googles the characters in the book and finds these stories? Would they be upset with that and not want to publish you? What if your book fans do the same and see these old PV stories? It would be great advertisement for the board, but they’d see a different version of your characters. Is that ok?
I had mine removed cause I didn’t want people to see my horrid writing. But your prose was better. Also, while it’s easy to wipe Ann and Roland from the board, it won’t be so easy to the same with your stuff.