Note: Jason and HH were having an interesting discussion down the board a ways, and I was going to chime in there but then figured the board could stand to have a little more activity, so why hide it halfway down the board?





Interesting. I hadn't really stopped to examine it that blatantly, but those categories do fit well... although "the opposite" can be applied rather broadly as a catch-all. Looking at Spider-man's rogues gallery for example, Venom is an obvious almost alike. Doc Ock comes in just around the line, being alike in scientific thinking and the 8-legged animal motiff, but not an obvious twin by any means. Norman Osborne is clearly the manipulator type (quite common for the one who gets the "arch enemy" designation). But much of the rest... Rhino, Electro, Vulture, Sandman, etc... that's just a grab bag of opposite. I suppose it's much harder for characters in this category to really jump to the top of a hero's rogues gallery because of this lack of obvious connection.

In any event, I thought it would be fun to run down the Parodyverse's Heroes main enemies and see how people would define them. Hopefully others will chime in and add their own characters to the list (Hatty and CSFB have some clearly defined arch enemies, after all...) and I'll probably need to come back to it a few times as well as I think of others:




Visionary:

The Apostate is a manipulator first, although there's a healthy bit of opposite in him... But when your hero is Visionary, you can't really help that. I admit, though, that his position as Vizh's nemisis is largely manufactured. There's no compelling reason given why he and Vizh are linked in a way that only allows for one of them in the Parodyverse...

Roni Y. Avis is probably as close to an "almost alike" villain as Vizh has, in that he's mostly a buffoon and no physical threat at all.


Hallie:

Rikka Ulz Hagan is definitely her arch enemy and a manipulator. She also has the familial history link to boost her to that "arch" position. Unlike many other villains, she genuinely has little interest in tormenting anyone other than Hallie as well.

HAGGIE is a clear almost alike, although the damaged robot body does make her a bit different now. Still, I would expect her to be able to do most anything Hallie can do.


Magweed:

Camellia is likely her arch enemy, a manipulator type again. Then again, I could see Auntie as the arch enemy of the twins with Camellia a larger threat to the entire family...

But seriously, I think HH's villain breakdown can be a bit more specific. Having two of your three villain types be "the total opposite of the hero" or the "almost identical to the hero", well, that covers a lot of ground. Venom and Scorpion both could be clasified as "almost alikes" to Spider-Man, but they were both vastly different characters. Er, when they were different characters, of course. TV tropes has a nice list of all the villain tropes that is a bit more comprehensive, if overlapping in places.

As for the Parodyverse, I find it interesting that two of its bigger villains more often than not are on the side of the heroes. The Hooded Hood and Akiko Masamune are usually allies or at the very least some kind of support, so as interesting as they are I don't think they can be considered archenemies of the Lair Legion.

As for the rest of the Parodyverse rogues, well, who is there? The Baroness and Baron Otto are two of my favorites. I've used them quite a bit in my own stories. I'm a sucker for the criminal mastermind type who has no powers, which Beth Zemo pretty much is. She's done some truly villainous things yet still has that hunourous undercurrent to the character that makes her fun to write. Same with Otto. Camilia of the Fey is another great villain, powerful, interesting motivation, a personal connection to the heroes, and truly detestable. The Word? Sorry, hasn't done enough to warrant being considered a top tier guy in my opinion. Apostate? At this point the same thing holds true. Parody Master? To me he's just a jumped up Dark Thugos, but at least Thugos is a parody of one of the greatest villains ever created, so you can swipe ideas from that character's mythology and use it to make the PVB version more interesting. I really like what HH is doing with the character right now. Thugos is a up and comer in terms of Parodyverse bad guys. So's Doorman, if Jay ever gets around to continuing that story.

Speaking of never getting around to finishing stories, I've made a ton of villains in my time here at the PVB. Most are rip offs of characters that exist in the Marvel or DC universes, and beyond my own stuff haven't had a huge impact on the Parodyverse as a whole. I suppose my three major contributions are the Grey Eminence, who outside of his name I don't think is all that unique, Factor X, again, not an original concept, but probably my best villain in that he is extremely competent and can be considered major threat, and the Idiom, who might be the one bad guy I have that could actually relocate to an existing superhero universe be her own person, even if she is equal parts Catwoman, Riddler, and Pre-Crisis Lex Luthor.

Regarding these categories, I totally get the opposite and the almost-alike, but where does the manipulator fit in terms of personality conflict? If the opposite represents everything the hero opposes, and the almost-alike represents a twisted mirror of what the hero could be, what does the manipulator represent? To continue the Spider-Man analogy, I'd see Norman as someone who represents the exact opposite of Peter; suave instead of awkward, greedy instead of responsible, and sadistic instead of compassionate.

In serial comics, "the opposite" has to take lots of forms because there needs to be some variety from month to month.

But if you want to look at this doctrine in action take a look at early Iron Man adversaries. They were mostly either:

(a) Armoured enemies - Titanium Man, Crimson Dynamo - or else tech-based villains, some with specific counters to Iron Man - the Melter, the Unicorn, Hawkeye

(b) Different non-science threats - Dr Doll (voodoo), Black Widow (espionage), the Scarecrow (horror) or even races of aliens - all taking Stark and/or Iron Man on in different kinds of battlegrounds

(c) Manipulators, mostly corporate - the Mandarin, Count Nefaria, Doctor Strange (not the sorcerer supreme version); remarkably lots of these manipulators tend to have beautiful daughters.

































Good analysis.

On a team-wide basis the LL tends to take on its evil counterparts - the Scourge, the Purveyors, and of course the Anti-League - it's opposites (often one very powerful adversary vs a group) - Ultizon, Count Armaggedon, the Confiscator - and its manipulator archvillains.

The point of the "almost identical" category is that the villain has the same power and skillset of the hero, demanding something extra from the hero to win - more heroism, more sacrifice etc. That's why Spidey has so many different variants of "almost like him" (Jameson supported the creation of the Scorpion because "Scorpions kill spiders"); it's so that Parker can be a hero because of his character not his powers.

By the way, I don't want to claim that I'm offering a comprehensive guideline to rogues galleries. The conversation Vizh snipped the paragraph out of was about finding a single specific recurring threat for Yuki, not about populating an entire fictional universe.




The problem with a recurring poster character villain is that they need reasons not to either destroy or be destroyed by the poster character heroes.

The traditional way of doing it is to have the villain do wicked background things setting up a great masterplan and establish some even nastier villain the readers can boo while the "regular" villain takes him down - or even teams up with the heroes to take down.

The last time the Hood and the LL clashed head on was around UT#68, but I'd say they were overdue for another go. In fact I'm working on it.




I've mostly shied away from putting the Word, Factor X, the Apostate, or any other active poster character's personal archvillain as centre stage in an LL story. That's because it would be over-the-line to show the villain being significantly defeated (that's for the character's creator to do) and unstatisfying if the heroes didn't get to chalk up a win. When I have used absent poster villains I've usually tried to give them "one last hurrah" then put them aside in case they're required back by their creator (Balefire, Magnetic Techbird, Pierson's Porter, etc).




The Idiom is good fun. I also like your mid-level "working-class" villains.

The Manipulator tends to have roots that go right back to the hero's origin and before. That's why movie retcons have but Osborn indutries experiements behind Parker's radioactive spider, why the Joker killed Batman's parents etc.

The Manipulator is often behind the scenes, pulling the strings, and so tends to touch those parts of the hero's life that elicit dramatic emotional response. In Iron Man's case, the Manipulator doesn't usually seek to kill Iron Man, he wants to take away Stark Industrries, Tony's life work. In Spidey's case with Osborn it's the triumph of power over responsibility as a corporate businessman abuses his position and resources (but yeah, he's only become a Manipulator in his more recent post-death retcon appearances). The Kingpin gives a face to the inexorable grip of organised crime. Immortus interferes with the whole life-direction of heroes for his own twisted ends.

Iron Man is an interesting case to me because despite his rise in prominence to the center of the Marvel Universe in the last decade or so, his rogue's gallery has mostly been left behind. I'm not sure what the status of the Mandarin actually is, but it does seem like he's a casualty of outdated concepts that have not yet been successfully reinvented. As for the rest of his rogues gallery, none really seem to do a good job of breaking out of the title book to become recognizable beyond Iron Man fans.

Contrasted with Cap/Red Skull, Thor/Loki, FF/Doom, X-men/Magneto, Spidey/Osborne, and more, Iron Man feels like he's lacking an arch villain that's on his fame level...






Indeed. I'm looking forward to the next version of the Scourge that HH puts together. And I note that Thugos is putting together a team out of what would be "opposites", beings that seem strong enough to stand alone against the LL.

It interesting to me that being on a team doesn't diminish the standing of a hero, but a villain who is on a team is automatically dropped down in "threat level" standing. Of course, villainous teams tend to lose to fit the story needs, so I guess logically once they've had a bunch of help and still been unable to take down the heroes, nobody is going to expect them to be able to do it alone...

Well, for me the categories work best in defining how the villain operates more than anything. One would expect, in traditional comic terms, for the villains to be fairly opposite of the hero in terms of values no matter what their mode of operation. I take the categories to be more superficial... first steps in outlining the broad strokes.

For instance, in creating a new villain for Al B. Harper... is it another scientist? What about an occult expert? Maybe a shadowy figure benefiting illegally from Al's research? (I suppose if you combine them all, you end up with Dr. Doom...)

I definitely see your point though that the Green Goblin was more of an opposite character, where as the recent Osborne has moved into the manipulator category.

I hate that they had the Joker kill Batman's parents in the first movie. It turned the entire thing into a revenge picture. Hollywood does love their revenge pictures, to the point where I think they get confused trying to understand any other motive for acting beyond self interests.

Oh, no thank you... I have things to do today. Once I go to TV tropes, I get suckered into to following link to link to link and never resurface until hours later.





Honestly, while I keep Akiko in reserve for a possible Big Bad, she was always meant to fill the role of the villainous ally. She helped the Legion in the International Incident story that introduced her before she ever crossed swords with them (briefly) in Mob Rules, and was allied with them again by the end of the story.






The Idiom is a lot of fun, and I don't think any modern creation can help being somehow a composite of characters that have come before. I'm also not so quick to dismiss all of your true Parody villain creations... I think they tend to show a lot more wit and interest than most attempts to create knowing nods to existing characters.

I agree. That was one of the most contrived and nonsensical plot developments in any movie I've ever seen. And while the rest of the movie was enjoyable, that was a twist I'd expect from Joel Schumacher.

While it's an astute observation, I almost feel like it's conflating 1) ideology (or at least personality) and 2) methodology, although I'll acknowledge that the two categories tend to be linked in most instances.

Here's what I mean; when you're talking about the Evil Twin and the Evil Opposite versus the Master Manipulator, what you're REALLY talking about are INDIVIDUAL Evil Twins and Evil Opposites versus Master Manipulators, since the latter class of character is ALSO made up of Evil Twins or Evil Opposites. Luthor is a Master Manipulator who is Superman's Evil Opposite - the amoral human super-genius versus the super-strong alien whose most admirable trait is his moral code - while someone like the movie version of Obidiah Stane is a Master Manipulator who, even BEFORE he dons the Iron Monger armor, is the Evil Twin of Tony Stark - brilliant engineer who's just as good at the business side of the house.

For instance, in CSFB's! rogues gallery, PAPG! is (or was) the Evil Twin, while Pelopia is the Evil Opposite, whereas The Word is CSFB's! Evil Opposite who is ALSO a Master Manipulator. Granted, depending upon the ideology or personality of the hero, it can be very difficult to do an Evil Twin who's also a Master Manipulator - Peter Parker, after all, is a very ground-level guy, so any Master Manipulator is going to be a bit the opposite of him anyway, but Doc Ock probably qualifies, since Otto Octavius is basically Peter Parker if he was older and hadn't had an Uncle Ben and Aunt May to give him a functional family upbringing.

Of course, in CSFB's! case, the character dynamics are fueled by the division of many of the main characters into either Forces of Order or Agents of Chaos, and the further division of the Agents of Chaos into either the Chaos of Creation or the Chaos of Destruction. CSFB! is an Agent of the Chaos of Creation, while PAPG! is an Agent of the Chaos of Destruction. Part of the reason I put PAPG! on the road toward redemption is because I wanted to show that Destruction doesn't necessarily equal Evil, just as CSFB!, who aspires to support Creation more, has occasionally skirted the line between Good and Evil by having nothing but the best of intentions.

Of course, that leaves a gap in CSFB's! Chaotic Evil solo enemy category, so I created UltiMAX-TremeMan to serve as his Evil Twin in PAPG's! stead. I still need to do some more work with him, just as I need to follow up on the fun introduction I gave to Lionel, Lord Lodestone, a.k.a. the Viceroy of Vice, who is probably as close as I could get to an Evil Twin Master Manipulator for CSFB!, since he represents the dark side of the entertainment media and open sexuality that CSFB! swims in.

Well, that, and having Lodestone around allows me to further perpetuate my Dune fetish, since he's pretty much the Parodyverse version of Baron Vladimir Harkonnen, who is a total fucking badass. The Baron was always like a more elegant and debauched version of the Kingpin, and he was almost surely the inspiration for Jabba the Hutt.



So few mastermind villains outside of Shakespeare deliver expository monologues on their plots in rhyming couplets anymore.