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Visionary
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Subject: Since I finally saw it and nobody else has been talking about it: The Dark Knight (no spoilers) Posted Sat Jul 26, 2008 at 02:00:30 pm EDT |
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Posted with Mozilla Firefox 2.0.0.16 on Windows XP
I thought it was good, but not nearly as great as others seem to find it. I'd say the two biggest drawbacks that kept me from loving it were an emotional disconnect from everything that was happening, and the believability of the world.
To deal with the second issue first, the film paints perhaps the most realistic take on a super-hero's world yet. The film has a gritty, real world quality... and I found that somewhat distracting, as it caused me to apply real world logic to the whole thing. Plus, when you strip enough of the mythic away, the idea of regular police officers teaming up with a guy in a bat suit is pretty damn silly.
As for the first criticism, it's simply not a movie that is easy to warm up to. The only characters I have any real affection for are Alfred, Lucius and Gordon. While I didn't actively dislike Rachel in this movie as I did in the first, I was mostly indifferent to her, making the quasi-love triangle more of an exercise in plotting than anything else.
That said, it was an entertaining adventure. The plot has many elements that you could pick at, but is engrossing enough to make them forgivable. The performances are all top notch, and Ledger really is quite interesting as the Joker. I may warm up to this one more once I see it again on video, as I ultimately did with "Batman Begins".
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killer shrike
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Subject: It was good, though I liked "Begins" better [Re: Visionary] Posted Sat Jul 26, 2008 at 02:31:55 pm EDT |
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Posted with Microsoft Internet Explorer 7 on Windows Vista
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Nats
Member Since: Thu Jan 01, 2004 Posts: 85
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Subject: I thought it was just about flawless. [Re: Visionary] Posted Sat Jul 26, 2008 at 04:03:28 pm EDT (Viewed 418 times) |
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Posted with Mozilla Firefox 2.0.0.16 on Windows XP
>
> I thought it was good, but not nearly as great as others seem to find it. I'd say the two biggest drawbacks that kept me from loving it were an emotional disconnect from everything that was happening, and the believability of the world.
>
> To deal with the second issue first, the film paints perhaps the most realistic take on a super-hero's world yet. The film has a gritty, real world quality... and I found that somewhat distracting, as it caused me to apply real world logic to the whole thing. Plus, when you strip enough of the mythic away, the idea of regular police officers teaming up with a guy in a bat suit is pretty damn silly.
>
> As for the first criticism, it's simply not a movie that is easy to warm up to. The only characters I have any real affection for are Alfred, Lucius and Gordon. While I didn't actively dislike Rachel in this movie as I did in the first, I was mostly indifferent to her, making the quasi-love triangle more of an exercise in plotting than anything else.
>
> That said, it was an entertaining adventure. The plot has many elements that you could pick at, but is engrossing enough to make them forgivable. The performances are all top notch, and Ledger really is quite interesting as the Joker. I may warm up to this one more once I see it again on video, as I ultimately did with "Batman Begins".
>
>
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killer shrike
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Subject: And for those of us who like our Batman a little less angsty: [Re: killer shrike] Posted Sun Jul 27, 2008 at 09:42:44 pm EDT (Viewed 2 times) |
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CrazySugarFreakBoy!
Member Since: Sun Jan 04, 2004 Posts: 1,235
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Subject: I have to agree with most of your points, although I was still REALLY impressed by it. [Re: Visionary] Posted Sun Jul 27, 2008 at 09:58:32 pm EDT (Viewed 405 times) |
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Posted with Microsoft Internet Explorer 7 on Windows XP
The "CSI: Gotham" nature of exhaustively grounding even the most improbable plot devices in potentially attainable technology and forensic science was very clever and fun, but, yeah, it did kind of highlight the disconnect between the deliberately non-stylized style of this world's reality, versus the costume-wearing vigilantes and criminals who appeared in it. That being said, I actually quite liked the idea that the Joker would be deemed a "terrorist" in the post-9/11 world, as well as the questions about security-versus-liberty that the story was smart enough to acknowledge, at least.
Michael Caine, Morgan Freeman and Gary Oldman were all reliably top-notch. Christian Bale needs some work - he's both a bit too bland as Bruce Wayne and a bit over-the-top as Batman. In particular, the growly voice simply DOES NOT WORK. He should have been studying Kevin Conroy's voiceover work in the Paul Dini/Bruce Timm Batman cartoons instead. Aaron Eckhardt as Harvey Dent, however, was remarkably affecting, even though I knew, of course, the fate that would befall him. Even as Two-Face, he played it just straight enough for me to buy off on it. I'll agree, though, that Maggie Gyllenhaal, who can be sizzling in the right role, was remarkably dull here.
I got a kick out of all the little touches, like "Commissioner Loeb," Eric Roberts as Sal Maroni (Jesus, all they need now is Rupert Thorne in the next film, and they'll have the trifecta of non-costumed Gotham mobsters whom I never would have expected to see in a Batman film), Michael Jai White (ha ha, Spawn!) as the mob boss that the Joker pisses off, and "Tiny" Lister (DEEBO!!!) as the convict who turns out to be The Moral Voice Of The Everyman in the movie.
Heath Ledger as the Joker ... Jesus Fucking Christ, this was tragically golden. I submit that Ledger's Joker constitutes the best portrayal I've ever seen of the character, in ANY medium, including the comic books that served as its source material. In the movie theater, I found myself laughing out loud and nearly shouting, "HOLY SHIT," at least once every time he appeared onscreen, starting from the "disappearing pencil trick" forward, and in that same theater, I was far from alone in that regard. The multiple-choice versions of his past, and the contention that anyone can be turned into someone like him, with just the right push, all hearkened back to the best of Alan Moore's writing in "The Killing Joke," and when he called himself an "Agent of Chaos," I just about lost my shit completely.
My dream picks for the next film: David Tennant as the Riddler (he's already expressed an interest in the role), serving as Batman's nemesis, with Oswald Cobblepot as Bruce Wayne's business rival.
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CrazySugarFreakBoy!
Member Since: Sun Jan 04, 2004 Posts: 1,235
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Subject: OMG THIS IS A DISGRACE AND AN INSULT TO BATMAN!!!111 [Re: killer shrike] Posted Sun Jul 27, 2008 at 10:50:16 pm EDT (Viewed 475 times) |
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Posted with Microsoft Internet Explorer 7 on Windows XP
A kids' cartoon doesn't need to be (and arguably shouldn't be, in certain respects) all dark and brooding, but by the same token, if the retro music is any indication, this show seems to be trying for a deliberately campy tone, which I'd argue is pandering way more toward the nostalgic adults in the audience than to their children. Plastic Man and the new Blue Beetle are GREAT choices for a kids' cartoon (and I'd love to see the new Blue Beetle's hot Hispanic MILF mom from the comics on the show), but including a Silver Age-style Green Arrow on that lineup seems about as out-of-place and self-indulgent as a baby-boomer DJ playing a Warren Zevon song under the pretense that "it's what the young people want to hear."
Still, it looks light-years better than the total piece-of-shit that was "The Batman" cartoon, so I'm cautiously optimistic.
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Visionary
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Subject: Re: I have to agree with most of your points, although I was still REALLY impressed by it. [Re: CrazySugarFreakBoy!] Posted Mon Jul 28, 2008 at 12:48:00 am EDT (Viewed 3 times) |
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Posted with Mozilla Firefox 2.0.0.16 on Windows XP
> The "CSI: Gotham" nature of exhaustively grounding even the most improbable plot devices in potentially attainable technology and forensic science was very clever and fun, but, yeah, it did kind of highlight the disconnect between the deliberately non-stylized style of this world's reality, versus the costume-wearing vigilantes and criminals who appeared in it. That being said, I actually quite liked the idea that the Joker would be deemed a "terrorist" in the post-9/11 world, as well as the questions about security-versus-liberty that the story was smart enough to acknowledge, at least.
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Yeah, but thinking through the terrorist analogy led me to some unpleasant associations. Essentially, this movie comes across as George Bush's wet dreams of himself. First, and most obvious, is that Batman is completely willing to tap and spy on every citizen in Gotham if it will help him catch this dangerous terrorist. He doesn't hesitate to resort to torture in order to get information... Not just intimidation, mind you... actual torture. What's more, his main objection to Harvey himself torturing that one guy is that it would be bad if the public found out about it. (Note that neither he nor Harvey ever have qualms about using information gathered through torture committed by shadow agents (aka Batman himself), so it's all about the political appearance rather than any inherent immorality in the act itself.) And in the end of the film, the most noble thing that Batman can do is withhold the truth from the public and allow them to hate him, all for their own good. I'm sure this is going to be a favorite in the White House.
But really, the morality of Batman movies have always been botched at best. At this point, I have trouble understanding Batman's stand against killing. It's obviously not due to any inherent belief in the sanctity of human life (as witnessed by the "I don't have to save you" from the last movie). Nor is it apparently due to any belief in the system or the law, judging by the way he tramples it in this flick. Really, it just comes across as him not wanting to get his hands dirty. Ultimately, I think the Joker is right... in these movies, any morality applied by the characters seems to be arbitrary and a sham.
> Michael Caine, Morgan Freeman and Gary Oldman were all reliably top-notch. Christian Bale needs some work - he's both a bit too bland as Bruce Wayne and a bit over-the-top as Batman. In particular, the growly voice simply DOES NOT WORK. He should have been studying Kevin Conroy's voiceover work in the Paul Dini/Bruce Timm Batman cartoons instead. Aaron Eckhardt as Harvey Dent, however, was remarkably affecting, even though I knew, of course, the fate that would befall him. Even as Two-Face, he played it just straight enough for me to buy off on it.
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I really liked him, although I felt the switch to evil seemed rather arbitrary... But that was probably because, again, I didn't really "feel" the death of Rachel.
> I'll agree, though, that Maggie Gyllenhaal, who can be sizzling in the right role, was remarkably dull here.
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Rachel was a horribly written role in the last movie, and just a plot device here. Really, Batman movies have never managed much of a connection in love stories... They're closer to James Bond movies than something love-story driven like Superman or Spider-man. (Even the last James Bond movie wasn't able to make me feel anything when his girlfriend died.)
>
> I got a kick out of all the little touches, like "Commissioner Loeb," Eric Roberts as Sal Maroni (Jesus, all they need now is Rupert Thorne in the next film, and they'll have the trifecta of non-costumed Gotham mobsters whom I never would have expected to see in a Batman film), Michael Jai White (ha ha, Spawn!) as the mob boss that the Joker pisses off, and "Tiny" Lister (DEEBO!!!) as the convict who turns out to be The Moral Voice Of The Everyman in the movie.
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I really liked the convict on the ship scene... and it was perfectly believable that there would be a single guy there willing to take charge and put an end to things. However, I wasn't nearly as convinced by the civilian's side of things. Sorry, but the Joker had made his point too well to make me believe there was nobody who was willing to press that button.
>
> Heath Ledger as the Joker ... Jesus Fucking Christ, this was tragically golden. I submit that Ledger's Joker constitutes the best portrayal I've ever seen of the character, in ANY medium, including the comic books that served as its source material. In the movie theater, I found myself laughing out loud and nearly shouting, "HOLY SHIT," at least once every time he appeared onscreen, starting from the "disappearing pencil trick" forward, and in that same theater, I was far from alone in that regard. The multiple-choice versions of his past, and the contention that anyone can be turned into someone like him, with just the right push, all hearkened back to the best of Alan Moore's writing in "The Killing Joke," and when he called himself an "Agent of Chaos," I just about lost my shit completely.
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I really liked him... I just wish there had been more chemistry between him and Bale as Batman. Mostly, Bale just growled through all their scenes together. Batman was totally outclassed by his adversary.
>
> My dream picks for the next film: David Tennant as the Riddler (he's already expressed an interest in the role), serving as Batman's nemesis, with Oswald Cobblepot as Bruce Wayne's business rival.
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Well, I think they can either coast on the success of this one (and coast a long way, from the look of things) or they can try to keep public interest at a fever pitch by offering a new take on Selina Kyle/Catwoman next time out. People have forgotten that Halle Berry film ever existed, and she's the biggest character they could bring in next.
Anyway, while it's easier for me to go off on the things that weren't perfect, it was still a very well done and entertaining movie.
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Visionary
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Subject: Well, I obviously saw some flaws, but it's still quite good in my mind. [Re: Nats] Posted Mon Jul 28, 2008 at 12:48:44 am EDT |
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Posted with Mozilla Firefox 2.0.0.16 on Windows XP
> >
> > I thought it was good, but not nearly as great as others seem to find it. I'd say the two biggest drawbacks that kept me from loving it were an emotional disconnect from everything that was happening, and the believability of the world.
> >
> > To deal with the second issue first, the film paints perhaps the most realistic take on a super-hero's world yet. The film has a gritty, real world quality... and I found that somewhat distracting, as it caused me to apply real world logic to the whole thing. Plus, when you strip enough of the mythic away, the idea of regular police officers teaming up with a guy in a bat suit is pretty damn silly.
> >
> > As for the first criticism, it's simply not a movie that is easy to warm up to. The only characters I have any real affection for are Alfred, Lucius and Gordon. While I didn't actively dislike Rachel in this movie as I did in the first, I was mostly indifferent to her, making the quasi-love triangle more of an exercise in plotting than anything else.
> >
> > That said, it was an entertaining adventure. The plot has many elements that you could pick at, but is engrossing enough to make them forgivable. The performances are all top notch, and Ledger really is quite interesting as the Joker. I may warm up to this one more once I see it again on video, as I ultimately did with "Batman Begins".
> >
> >
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Visionary
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Subject: Heh. Rockin' [Re: killer shrike] Posted Mon Jul 28, 2008 at 12:49:11 am EDT |
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Posted with Mozilla Firefox 2.0.0.16 on Windows XP
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Visionary
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Subject: Begins had some emotion to it that this one was missing, thanks to the Bruce/Alfred relationship. [Re: killer shrike] Posted Mon Jul 28, 2008 at 12:50:12 am EDT |
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Posted with Mozilla Firefox 2.0.0.16 on Windows XP
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Nats
Member Since: Thu Jan 01, 2004 Posts: 85
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Subject: Re: I have to agree with most of your points, although I was still REALLY impressed by it. [Re: Visionary] Posted Mon Jul 28, 2008 at 03:55:13 pm EDT (Viewed 423 times) |
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Posted with Mozilla Firefox 2.0.0.16 on Windows XP
> > The "CSI: Gotham" nature of exhaustively grounding even the most improbable plot devices in potentially attainable technology and forensic science was very clever and fun, but, yeah, it did kind of highlight the disconnect between the deliberately non-stylized style of this world's reality, versus the costume-wearing vigilantes and criminals who appeared in it. That being said, I actually quite liked the idea that the Joker would be deemed a "terrorist" in the post-9/11 world, as well as the questions about security-versus-liberty that the story was smart enough to acknowledge, at least.
>
> Yeah, but thinking through the terrorist analogy led me to some unpleasant associations. Essentially, this movie comes across as George Bush's wet dreams of himself. First, and most obvious, is that Batman is completely willing to tap and spy on every citizen in Gotham if it will help him catch this dangerous terrorist. He doesn't hesitate to resort to torture in order to get information... Not just intimidation, mind you... actual torture. What's more, his main objection to Harvey himself torturing that one guy is that it would be bad if the public found out about it. (Note that neither he nor Harvey ever have qualms about using information gathered through torture committed by shadow agents (aka Batman himself), so it's all about the political appearance rather than any inherent immorality in the act itself.) And in the end of the film, the most noble thing that Batman can do is withhold the truth from the public and allow them to hate him, all for their own good. I'm sure this is going to be a favorite in the White House.
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You'd think, but Batman himself comes to realize his methods are dragging him further down into the depths here. He knows he's wrong, which is why he destroys the spy rig at the end, therefore keeping Lucius as an ally.
It's a film where almost everyone, at some level, has effed-up morals.
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Nats
Member Since: Thu Jan 01, 2004 Posts: 85
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Subject: The more I see of this, the more I like it. There is room for multiple Batmen in this world. [Re: killer shrike] Posted Mon Jul 28, 2008 at 03:55:58 pm EDT (Viewed 439 times) |
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Visionary
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Subject: Re: I have to agree with most of your points, although I was still REALLY impressed by it. [Re: Nats] Posted Mon Jul 28, 2008 at 06:49:06 pm EDT (Viewed 1 times) |
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Posted with Mozilla Firefox 2.0.0.16 on Windows XP
> > > The "CSI: Gotham" nature of exhaustively grounding even the most improbable plot devices in potentially attainable technology and forensic science was very clever and fun, but, yeah, it did kind of highlight the disconnect between the deliberately non-stylized style of this world's reality, versus the costume-wearing vigilantes and criminals who appeared in it. That being said, I actually quite liked the idea that the Joker would be deemed a "terrorist" in the post-9/11 world, as well as the questions about security-versus-liberty that the story was smart enough to acknowledge, at least.
> >
> > Yeah, but thinking through the terrorist analogy led me to some unpleasant associations. Essentially, this movie comes across as George Bush's wet dreams of himself. First, and most obvious, is that Batman is completely willing to tap and spy on every citizen in Gotham if it will help him catch this dangerous terrorist. He doesn't hesitate to resort to torture in order to get information... Not just intimidation, mind you... actual torture. What's more, his main objection to Harvey himself torturing that one guy is that it would be bad if the public found out about it. (Note that neither he nor Harvey ever have qualms about using information gathered through torture committed by shadow agents (aka Batman himself), so it's all about the political appearance rather than any inherent immorality in the act itself.) And in the end of the film, the most noble thing that Batman can do is withhold the truth from the public and allow them to hate him, all for their own good. I'm sure this is going to be a favorite in the White House.
>
> You'd think, but Batman himself comes to realize his methods are dragging him further down into the depths here. He knows he's wrong, which is why he destroys the spy rig at the end, therefore keeping Lucius as an ally.
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Except that they go through with using it... which means they felt it was justified at least that one time because of the danger the terrorist posed. Oh, sure... it's not the kind of thing they'd leave around to use during peacetime, certainly, and so when they were done with it they destroyed it. But while the Joker was out there, they used it.
If they wanted to send the message that it wasn't acceptable, then Lucius should have quit on the spot and left the room, showing that Bruce had already gone too far. Agreeing to do anything "Just this once" never sends the message that something is truly forbidden, and always leaves the door open to doing it again.
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CrazySugarFreakBoy!
Member Since: Sun Jan 04, 2004 Posts: 1,235
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Subject: I suspect it might have been an intentional comment upon the inherent hypocrisy of the autocrat ... [Re: Visionary] Posted Mon Jul 28, 2008 at 09:29:59 pm EDT (Viewed 427 times) |
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Posted with Microsoft Internet Explorer 7 on Windows XP
... Which is a trait shared by both Batman and the Doctor from Doctor Who. Both characters possess a bit of an anti-authoritarian streak - granted, the Doctor overthrows entire civilizations at will, while Batman is willing to work with certain members of Gotham law enforcement, but he still sees fit to overlook or defy the laws they serve whenever he deems it appropriate - because both characters, to a certain extent, make their own laws. However, this is precisely what makes them hypocritical, because they are anti-authoritarian when dealing with authorities outside of their own, but they expect their own authorities to be obeyed, and they're willing to go to extreme ends to enforce those authorities.
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