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CrazySugarFreakBoy!


Member Since: Sun Jan 04, 2004
Posts: 1,235

Posted with Microsoft Internet Explorer 7 on Windows XP

I haven't even started this essay yet, and I'm already going to allow myself to get distracted by a seemingly unrelated tangent, but trust me, it'll make sense in the end (I hope).

I'm going to make a bold prediction:

Somewhere out there, in America, there is a young woman, in her teens or 20s, who will make history when she runs for president, somewhere between a quarter-century to a half-century from now.

However, she probably won't make history by being the first female presidential candidate to receive her political party's nomination, and she might not even make history by being the first female presidential candidate to get elected to the office (since, by that time, we might have already had our first female president).

Rather, this woman will make history in much the same way that Bill Clinton did, by being the first presidential candidate to survive a specific type of scandal.

On that score, Clinton actually made history twice, by being the first presidential candidate to survive credible allegations of marital infidelity and recreational drug use, but it's really the latter type of scandal that will be most comparable to that of our future female presidential candidate.

Because, you see, my prediction is that our future female presidential candidate will be caught up in scandal when it's discovered that, when she was younger, she posted pornographic pictures of herself on the Internet.

As when Clinton was revealed to have partaken of marijuana in his college years, this "youthful indiscretion" will initially outrage a certain segment of the electorate, and expose (heh) our future female presidential candidate to ridicule by the rest, especially when she will no doubt attempt to talk her way out of it ("I didn't inhale" will sound practically Shakespearean in retrospect, compared to whatever lame excuse is offered by the candidate or her staff).

However, as with Clinton, these criticisms will soon generate a backlash of support for our future female presidential candidate, as more and more citizens and politicians assert, either privately or publicly, that "everyone has done this," and whether that's true or not, there will be enough verifiable anecdotes of other members of the candidate's generation engaging in similar behavior that, eventually, even moderate voters will decide that it's true that "everybody's done it," and thus, the scandal will be largely nullified.

And I just told you all of that so that I can tell you this, and (hopefully) ensure that the weight of it will sink in; I'm 33 years old, and the generations who are younger than me will one day be running the world, and they have almost no direct memories of the world as it existed before the advent of the Internet or "reality" television, which means that they have almost no concept of privacy, at least in the sense that I and a lot of people who are my age and older understand it.

And I'm not even necessarily saying that as a criticism, but I am pointing out that this changes a lot about the ability of certain genres' tropes to continue to exist into the future, because when you have an entire generation for whom "private" means that you're only telling your "friends list" of dozens, or even hundreds, of online acquaintances about it, then guess what? That wangsty emo character who never tells anyone about his or her most special secret ever? Well, that character's going to be a lot tougher to sell to that audience.

We're already seeing it in modern media reinterpretations of what "secret identities" actually mean, because from Buffy the Vampire Slayer to the Singer-and-Ratner X-Men and Nolan-and-Bale Batman movies, even the "loners who don't work well with others" are surrounded by entire teams who are in on their most well-kept secrets. Hell, Sam Raimi has claimed that Peter Parker should never be married, and yet, even he couldn't resist letting Mary Jane in on his secret, and paving the way for their shared future happiness, at the end of Spider-Man II (which only served to make Superman Returns seem even more inexcusable by comparison, because it ended with Lois and Clark both knowing that her son's father was Superman, and yet, she still didn't know Superman's secret identity).

And the reason why storytellers in those genres should care is because, once certain genres become so wedded to certain tropes that they're rendered irreconcilable with the realities in which successive generations of audiences live, then they're reduced to "historical genres." It's the same reason why the vast majority of stories about undiscovered islands or continents now tend to be set in the late 19th and early 20th centuries, or those about Martians or other pulp-style sci-fi are now rarely set after the 1950s. Granted, in those cases, it's because actual science has conclusively disproven the "science" behind those "science fiction" premises, but the principle remains the same; once you reach a point where the fundamental underpinnings of a premise can no longer withstand the skepticism of modern scrutiny, then the only hope for such a premise is to set it in an era when the premise was still considered remotely credible. In short, if you really do want to keep everything the same about your favorite genre or premise, forever, then you're essentially ghettoizing it to the status of nostalgia.

Which, actually, is why I think the best way to adapt Captain Marvel/The Power of Shazam! to other media, without losing all of the impossibly silly traits that make the concept so appealing and distinctive in the first place, would be to do it as a 1930s/1940s period piece, but I digress yet again.

Because there's nothing inherently wrong with nostalgia, as long as you own up to it and are willing to enter into it all the way. George Lucas didn't channel his nerd-love of 1940s action-adventure serials, set in unexplored jungles and outer space, by setting the Indiana Jones or Star Wars movies in the modern day, and if you really do feel that strongly about preserving all of your favorite tropes from a certain genre or premise, then neither should you. Yeah, it might suck that you can't show Superman or Spider-Man chatting on cell phones or surfing the Internet, but if you want to set their stories in worlds in which the audience might actually buy off on those two being able to keep their secret identities hidden indefinitely from Lois or Mary Jane, then that's the price you must pay.




Visionary



Posted with Mozilla Firefox 2.0.0.16 on Windows XP


I would go so far as to say that the internet makes secret identities *more* understandable to today's audiences, rather than less. The idea that nerdy Peter Parker, too shy to talk to girls in class, puts on a mask and relishes the anonymity, letting out a whole extroverted personality is something a huge percentage of shy people experience for themselves today thanks to the internet.

Hell, before the internet came along, I only had one name that anyone knew me by. Now I have several, and they help separate different interests.

--Visionary (aka mild mannered artist by day.)




killer shrike



Posted with Microsoft Internet Explorer 7 on Windows Vista

>
> I would go so far as to say that the internet makes secret identities *more* understandable to today's audiences, rather than less. The idea that nerdy Peter Parker, too shy to talk to girls in class, puts on a mask and relishes the anonymity, letting out a whole extroverted personality is something a huge percentage of shy people experience for themselves today thanks to the internet.
>
> Hell, before the internet came along, I only had one name that anyone knew me by. Now I have several, and they help separate different interests.
>
> --Visionary (aka mild mannered artist by day.)





CrazySugarFreakBoy!


Member Since: Sun Jan 04, 2004
Posts: 1,235

Posted with Microsoft Internet Explorer 7 on Windows XP

One of the many things I've learned, from visiting my mom's classrooms for so many years, is that kids see the Internet in a completely different way than we do, and use it accordingly.

They are VERY open (arguably TOO open) about posting all of their most intimate life's details online, and the pragmatic relative degrees of anonymity that you and I might know enough to engage in are something that they constantly have to be reminded to practice, even in an age of well-publicized cases of sexual predators taking advantage of kids through the Internet, because those same kids often see it, not merely as an option, but almost as an entitlement, to become "Internet famous."

They've been raised in an all-encompassing media culture in which fame is seen as an end goal, in and of itself, and through the Internet and reality TV both, they've also seen that one of the more effective ways of gaining that fame is by exposing themselves - either figuratively, literally or both - online.

When my mom has let me answer her students' questions about superheroes (they know me as "Mrs. Boxleitner's son, who scammed a ton of free comics for his ship after 9/11, and who always donates his used comics to our class"), two things I've been asked, with increasing frequency, are a) how superheroes can manage to keep their identities secret, in this age of all-pervasive seeing-eye media, and b) why they would even choose to do so.

Indeed, I posted this same essay on my LiveJournal, and I've already received the following reply to it, from Avalon's Willow, who's a 20something superhero comics fan:


In a world with Flickr are people really not going to guess how Peter Parker gets those crazy angles? Especially with other people hanging out of windows to take cellphone and digital shots of Spidey's fights?

I would contend that even kids who want to believe that "a man can fly" are, increasingly, inherently incapable of believing in secret identities.



killer shrike



Posted with Microsoft Internet Explorer 7 on Windows Vista


>
> When my mom has let me answer her students' questions about superheroes (they know me as "Mrs. Boxleitner's son, who scammed a ton of free comics for his ship after 9/11, and who always donates his used comics to our class"), two things I've been asked, with increasing frequency, are a) how superheroes can manage to keep their identities secret, in this age of all-pervasive seeing-eye media, and b) why they would even choose to do so.



We used to ask the same questions when we were kids, and that was well before the all pervasive internet. Does "How can people not realize Clark Kent and Superman are the same person?" sound familiar? Only if you've been following comics for the past fifty years!




CrazySugarFreakBoy!


Member Since: Sun Jan 04, 2004
Posts: 1,235

Posted with Microsoft Internet Explorer 7 on Windows XP

Because, from where I stand, even though kids are more than willing to suspend their disbelief for stupid tropes that THEY like, they have ZERO tolerance for tropes that they're even so much as lukewarm about, especially if those tropes are seen as older than their own generation.

And as for Superman's secret identity, I would point out that, as Batman pointed out to him in a recent DC comic, the last time anyone cared about him was when he was dead. Superman II ended with Superman date-raping erasing Lois' memory. Spider-Man II ended with Mary Jane pointing out that it was total bullshit for Peter to live "half a life" by keeping his secret from her. Superman Returns maintained Lois' ignorance of Superman's secret identity, and as much as film critics loved it, that was one of the many reasons why almost every single person I knew under the age of 30 thought it was unforgivably dumb.

If narrative traditions don't work, they simply need to be dumped. And the best thing I can say about secret identies is that some kids will tolerate them, if they have to. Again, I don't hear anyone under the age of 30 arguing that they should be preserved.




killer shrike



Posted with Microsoft Internet Explorer 7 on Windows Vista

> Because, from where I stand, even though kids are more than willing to suspend their disbelief for stupid tropes that THEY like, they have ZERO tolerance for tropes that they're even so much as lukewarm about, especially if those tropes are seen as older than their own generation.


They seem to be OK with the idea of a secret identity for Spider-Man, since all three of his films have raked in over a billion dollars. Batman, too, seems to be doing OK for himself.

How many Manga characters use the idea of a secret identity? The Sailor Moon franchsie had them. Power Rangers too.

Technically, the entire mythology of Harry Potter is an extension of the idea of a secret identity, since the average person doesn't even seem to know magic exists in that world (or at least didn't in the two books I read).

Secret identities as a plot device aren't going anywhere.




CrazySugarFreakBoy!


Member Since: Sun Jan 04, 2004
Posts: 1,235

Posted with Microsoft Internet Explorer 7 on Windows XP

... In that, in all of the examples you cited, the "secret identity" isn't anywhere near as secret as guys like Quesada think it should be, since - as I already pointed out, in my original post - all of those "secret identities" are surrounded by entire support crews of people who know their secrets (since you're alluding to the movie versions of Spider-Man and Batman). Thus, I would contend that the "secret identity" that's kept hidden indefinitely, from everyone, including the "one true love" of the protagonist(s), is already well on its way out, in most places except for American superhero comics. Hell, one of the things my mom's students like about Ultimate Spider-Man (and I can't believe I'm saying good things about Bendis) is the fact that literally every single one of Peter's close school friends, AND Aunt May, now know his "secret identity."



killer shrike



Posted with Microsoft Internet Explorer 7 on Windows Vista

There have been few, if any, truly secret identities in heroic fiction. Even in the Silver Age:

Batman had Alfred, Robin, Superman.

Superman had Batman, Supergirl, even Jor-El showed up in time travel stories and knew about his double life.

Spider-Man would have the Osborns (when they weren't repressing the memory of it).

Want to look even further back? Green Hornet and Kato. The Spirit and, er, whomever his sidekick was. The Lone Ranger and Tonto.

There's never been a secret identity that's been "hidden indefinitely." Really, your contention (surprise, surprise!) is that the hero's romantic interest not knowing his secret identity is out of favor as a plot device, which is an entirely different argument. And, really, not a thesis you can justify because you've talked to some students' in your mother's classroom. It certainly can't be proved with the argument that the internet has made people less willing to believe in the idea of a secret life.



> ... In that, in all of the examples you cited, the "secret identity" isn't anywhere near as secret as guys like Quesada think it should be, since - as I already pointed out, in my original post - all of those "secret identities" are surrounded by entire support crews of people who know their secrets (since you're alluding to the movie versions of Spider-Man and Batman). Thus, I would contend that the "secret identity" that's kept hidden indefinitely, from everyone, including the "one true love" of the protagonist(s), is already well on its way out, in most places except for American superhero comics. Hell, one of the things my mom's students like about Ultimate Spider-Man (and I can't believe I'm saying good things about Bendis) is the fact that literally every single one of Peter's close school friends, AND Aunt May, now know his "secret identity."




HH



Posted with Microsoft Internet Explorer 6 on Windows 2000

I think there's some merit to your asserions, but here's the devil's advocate counterpoint.

I don't believe we've seen the end of secret identities, either in literature generally or comics in particular. Some of the motivations they tap into are too deep.

For comics, the secret identity theme touches on all kinds of reader identification issues, especially for younger and less secure audiences:

1. I know something you don't - Remember all those old comics where Superman winks at the reader in the last panel and reader and Supes are united in sharing a secret that dopey old Lois doesn't know? We identify with the main character because we share an insight into his life that those around him don't.

2. If only people knew who I really am - The Lee/Ditko Spidey distilled this down: "If only the kids at school knew it was me who saved them they'd treat me differently. They think I'm just weak nerdy Peter Parker. Imagine if they knew that I am really... Spider-Man!" It's the dream of the misunderstood outsider, to be respected and admired if people "really knew" what they're truly like.

3. I carry an impossible burden others do not have - All the times the hero gets into trouble because they've had to choose between doing the right thing and doing the socially acceptable thing, missing the date to save the world, and the angst that comes with it, touches on the lifestyle choices and evolving social awarenesses of younger readers; everyone feels like they're a special case for reasons nobody else can know.

4. I'm smart and you're dumb because I can keep a secret from you - Every time Flash Thompson rags on Parker for being useless then goes to his Forest Hills Spidey Fan Club meeting we're laughing at Flash and cheering for Peter; one up for the brainy nerd over the dumb jock. And yes, it's the same with the mysogenistic 50s Clark and Lois dynamic, where Lois plays the part of snoopy big-sister killjoy.

5. There's things about me and things I do that I don't want people to know - All the others in this list are about wish-fulfillment and wanting to be like the hero. This one's a phobia, about mom finding the mags hidden under the bed or the kids at school finding out about the tap dancing lessons. It's the dramatic tension of the threat of discovery and the subsequent damage that would cause.

Movies have to compress story arcs in ways that serial comics don't and can't, so of course they cover the meaty seat-filling stuff like identity discovery. Serial comics exist for the main part on illusion of change rather than change itself, so more often than not the reset button gets used.

Since we have the remarkable situation nowadays of comics characters with publishing histories twice as long or more than the average reader age we've got many heroes who have already gone through their natural story development cycle and some or on their third or fourth time around. Hence, where a story might appropriately end with the hero laying aside his mask, marrying the girl, and settling down after a job well done we instead have to have the story of the murder of the bride and our hero taking up his mask to fight on after the tragedy. Again.

Now to the romantic-specific stuff. A good half of romantic plot developments are along the lines of "I can never tell him/her, but..." followed by some revelation about a former lover, a dark secret, a fatal illness or whatever other cliche you care to insert. Secret identities fit exactly into this pattern, and are actually slightly less icky than some of the alternative complications.

We still live with storytelling expectations fed by ancient literature and compounded by a contemporary media concentration on a young single audience. Naturally this means the focus is on the hero's journey, that intense period of cheracter development through struggle which often includes meeting and finally winning a partner and lifemate. That journey naturally ends with "winning the kingdom" and settling down with the queen. Very few adventure stories feature the drama and excitement of raising a family or living in a stable monogamous relationship.

And that's why so few comics romances last, or else become protracted out in holding patterns past the endurance of long-term readers. It's not that somebody couldn't write about a long-term stable married couple and their adventures (FF comes nearest in mainstream comics, being in effect a family team drama), but such a series is contrary to reader expectations and therefore a harder sell.

Therefore in the lexicon of reasons romances remain in a holding pattern, secret identity, with the added "she's safer not knowing" excuse, is one of the primary tools. Revealing or discovering secret identity is a major step forward in depicting a genuine developing relationship, but that in itself works against the interests of an ongoing serial.






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