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Visionary 

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Member Since: Sat Jan 03, 2004
Posts: 2,131

Posted with Apple iPad 531.21.10



"She did what?" Fleabot asked, shocked.

Hallie nodded. "Anna went to court and got full citizenship" she noted.

Joan Henry exchanged glances with Tandi. "Er... How, exactly?"

The Holographic AI shrugged. "Temporary judicial insanity?" she suggested. "That Arnie J. Armbruster guy was her lawyer, and apparently knew the judge. Maybe an old college game of 'Truth or Dare' got out of hand and provided blackmail potential? Either way, news of the ruling is out on the wire." She held up her hand as Tandi's face lit up. "What's not yet reported is the restraining order preventing that or any other judge from repeating the stunt until the appeals process has a chance to undo it." She grimaced. "Trust me though, it has already been entered into the court's system. I'm keeping a close eye on things."

Fleabot cocked his head to the side. "So you knew about this before it happened?"

She blushed. "Well, now I'm keeping a close eye on it."

Tandi bounced happily (and impressively) on the balls of her feet. "But this is good news, right? If it happened for one of us, it can happen for many of us... Even all of us!"

Catbot, who was stretched out lazily in the sunlight streaming through the window, snorted, the tip of his blue furred tail slowly curling and uncurling.

"The Tid-E-Bowl cat is right" Joan responded. "I was facing hard time for smashing up a small percentage of Dullard's Corner, and it was made quite clear to me that I wasn't going to get a real trial anytime soon on account of being less than fleshy."

"Um..." noted Tandi (who was arguably more than fleshy), "You did roast that Sully guy..."

"That's right..." the steam powered behemoth replied grimly, "The didn't give me the parade they should have either."

"Somebody, somewhere was going to get a case like that through..." Fleabot reasoned.

Hallie sighed. "It's too soon...  the country isn't ready."

Tandi looked crestfallen. "So it won't be extended to the rest of us?"

The others exchanged a grim look (minus Catbot, who took the time to lick himself.)

"More than that..." Hallie said sadly, "This will set off a large number of reactions, and some of them are going to be nasty."

"But not back like it was during the parody war!" Tandi argued desperately. "People like us much more now!"

"This will rock the boat" Joan told her. "We're more easy to tolerate when we're out of sight, and stay in our place. Being legally declared equals is asking for a fight." She flexed her arm and closed her massive hand into a fist. "Not that I'm against asking politely."

"Its not just bigotry that's the issue..." Hallie countered. "We'd have a fighting chance if it was... There are plenty of humans who would stand on our side. It's literally too early for this. There are no standards to follow in granting synthetic life these kinds of rights... No basis for it in law. The voting issue alone could derail the country's democratic system."

"What if we didn't have the vote?" Tandi suggested.

"Citizenship without suffrage?" Fleabot mused. "It does have precedence. But even then I think the general populace will see it as a mighty big snowball to start rolling down the proverbial slippery slope. We have to face the ugly little truth that gnaws in the back of their minds... We could outnumber them quickly if society is given the incentive to make more of us. Tossing political power into the equation is a dangerously big carrot. It takes 18 years to make a fully functioning Human citizen... With an assembly line running, how many RoboAmericans could you churn out in a day?"

Tandi gripped her hands in front of her. "So what's going to happen next?"

"Legally?" Hallie asked, sadly. "By morning tomorrow, the next day at the latest, we'll be hearing proposals in Congress for some kind of "Defense of Citizenship" amendment to the Constitution... And one could pass. In this angry political climate I'm sure of it. The timing couldn't be worse. Nobody wants this to be an issue in the midterm elections. Plus there's the soon-to-be vacant seat on the Supreme Court to consider... This case is going to be synonymous with the phrase "activist judges". Even liberals will want to show they draw the line somewhere."

"What will that mean... 'An amendment'?"

"Depends on the wording" Fleabot replied. "But to be ratified, an Amendment needs three-fourths of the state legislatures to approve it. That's a very high hurdle to overcome... Much higher than a simple majority vote. If one goes through, it could only be overturned by another amendment, so if we were ever to regain rights denied us we'd need to reverse public opinion from overwhelming against us to overwhelmingly for us. Do you have any idea how few groups achieve 75% support in this country?"

"Best case scenario, aside from no amendment at all, is one with some wiggle room in the wording..." Hallie noted. "Something barring us from "all" rights of citizenship rather than "any". Something that would still allow us some forward progress through the legal system but appease the alarmed public until society was ready to fully adapt to synthetic citizenry." She paused. "Worst case would be language defining life as biological. We'd have no basic "human" rights at all."

"But you said just last month that the polls showed the public wanted us to have basic human rights!" Tandi insisted. "They like us!"

"Yeah, well... The debate shifted" Joan noted. "Now it's not about whether we should be used for forced labor, but whether we can overrun their political process and make them all second class citizens inside of a generation. A guilty conscience doesn't hold up well against flat-out self preservation."

Hallie opened her mouth to respond, but ultimately just sighed.

"...And illegally?" a voice asked lazily from behind them. Catbot regarded them through the welding goggles that served as his eyes as he stretched and climbed to his feet. "In answering what happens next, you started with "Legally..." So what's going to happen illegally?"

"Things are going to get bad" Hallie stated. "Human extremists are going to lash out. Robosapien extremists are going to exploit it. Artificial Organics Processing Technologies has been selling robosapien pacification armaments and A.I. signature tracking devices to various federal, state and local law enforcement departments for the last two years, but there have been whole shipments of those that have gone off the grid..." She grimaced. "I was watching those very closely, so that worries me." She bit her lip. "Things are going to get ugly."

"Well then... I've got places to be" the blue robotic cat stated simply, leaping up to the open window. "Nice to see you Legion types are keeping such a close eye on things."

Fleabot watched him go with a frown. "He was much more personable when I built him" he insisted.

"He's right though..." Joan noted, heading towards the door. "We need to spread the word to be prepared. I'll leave the political maneuverings to the 'bots that are more... subtle."

Tandi went to follow Joan out, but paused at the door. "Anna..." she said, a light in her eyes, "She really did it, didn't she?"

Hallie allowed herself a little smile. "She really did."

The former sex-bot nodded in return and left.

"It is quite an accomplishment" Fleabot noted when it was just the two of them left. "Its going to inspire a lot of young robots with the possibilities. There are going to be some great parties tonight in the Mangatown district."

"Tonight" Hallie agreed.

He nodded. "So how did you not see this coming?"

She sighed. "Nobody came to me. Yuki and Dream took her down to the courthouse... You know how those two are... Not a lot of reflection, lots of reflexes."

"And none of us really made an effort to get close with Anna" Fleabot stated.

"No" she answered guiltily.

"Because her various comments about how her brain could think in ways that ours couldn't were annoying."

"Yeah."

"Well, who would have thought that being petty would come back to bite us so thoroughly?" the tiny robot noted. "We really should have watched more After-School specials. Hazard of not growing up, I suppose." He looked to the holographic woman. "Anna's going to be a poster girl for the movement... A girl who looks harmless but could demolish a city block."

"It's... Less than ideal."

"People are going to think this is another stage of Dream's big proactive plans... The Legion's going to take heat from this. The press is going to have a feeding frenzy on any comment a Legionnaire makes on the subject. Is this herd of cats all going to be heading in the same direction?"

The A.I. crossed her arms. "I trust in the Legion."

He nodded. "So what do we do now?"

Hallie set her jaw. "We help Anna face whatever might be coming... And we get prepared to get hit. Hard."









Anime Jason 

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Location: Here
Member Since: Sun Sep 12, 2004
Posts: 2,834


anime.mangacool.net (10.0.255.1)
using Apple Safari 4.0.5 on MacOS X (0 points)


There's one important distinction to the citizenship decision for Anna: It gives her citizenship, but no rights. The judge was fairly careful about that. It's possible a law might be passed that says yes, artificials can be citizens, but they don't have the same rights as humans.

For Anna specifically, that's important because while she may not be handed the same rights as humans, she can't legally be treated as either property or a foreign combatant anymore.

Either way, though, it's going to create fallout simply because there are so many who want to maintain the status quo, and there are so many others who want change as long as it's someone on the "inside" who gets it first.




HH is glad you tied this in



Posted with Microsoft Internet Explorer 6 on Windows 2000


    Quote:



    Quote:
    "She did what?" Fleabot asked, shocked.



    Quote:
    Hallie nodded. "Anna went to court and got full citizenship" she noted.



    Quote:
    Joan Henry exchanged glances with Tandi. "Er... How, exactly?"



    Quote:
    The Holographic AI shrugged. "Temporary judicial insanity?" she suggested. "That Arnie J. Armbruster guy was her lawyer, and apparently knew the judge. Maybe an old college game of 'Truth or Dare' got out of hand and provided blackmail potential? Either way, news of the ruling is out on the wire." She held up her hand as Tandi's face lit up. "What's not yet reported is the restraining order preventing that or any other judge from repeating the stunt until the appeals process has a chance to undo it." She grimaced. "Trust me though, it has already been entered into the court's system. I'm keeping a close eye on things."



    Quote:
    Fleabot cocked his head to the side. "So you knew about this before it happened?"



    Quote:
    She blushed. "Well, now I'm keeping a close eye on it."



    Quote:
    Tandi bounced happily (and impressively) on the balls of her feet. "But this is good news, right? If it happened for one of us, it can happen for many of us... Even all of us!"



    Quote:
    Catbot, who was stretched out lazily in the sunlight streaming through the window, snorted, the tip of his blue furred tail slowly curling and uncurling.



    Quote:
    "The Tid-E-Bowl cat is right" Joan responded. "I was facing hard time for smashing up a small percentage of Dullard's Corner, and it was made quite clear to me that I wasn't going to get a real trial anytime soon on account of being less than fleshy."



    Quote:
    "Um..." noted Tandi (who was arguably more than fleshy), "You did roast that Sully guy..."



    Quote:
    "That's right..." the steam powered behemoth replied grimly, "The didn't give me the parade they should have either."



    Quote:
    "Somebody, somewhere was going to get a case like that through..." Fleabot reasoned.



    Quote:
    Hallie sighed. "It's too soon...  the country isn't ready."



    Quote:
    Tandi looked crestfallen. "So it won't be extended to the rest of us?"



    Quote:
    He others exchanged a grim look (minus Catbot, who took the time to lick himself.)



    Quote:
    "More than that..." Hallie said sadly, "This will set off a large number of reactions, and some of them are going to be nasty."



    Quote:
    "But not back like it was during the parody war!" Tandi argued desperately. "People like us much more now!"



    Quote:
    "This will rock the boat" Joan told her. "We're more easy to tolerate when we're out of sight, and stay in our place. Being legally declared equals is asking for a fight." She flexed her arm and closed her massive hand into a fist. "Not that I'm against asking politely."



    Quote:
    "Its not just bigotry that's the issue..." Hallie countered. "We'd have a fighting chance if it was... There are plenty of humans who would stand on our side. It's literally too early for this. There are no standards to follow in granting synthetic life these kinds of rights... No basis for it in law. The voting issue alone could derail the country's democratic system."



    Quote:
    "What if we didn't have the vote?" Tandi suggested.



    Quote:
    "Citizenship without suffrage?" Fleabot mused. "It does have precedence. But even then I think the general populace will see it as a mighty big snowball to start rolling down the proverbial slippery slope. We have to face the ugly little truth that gnaws in the back of their minds... We could outnumber them quickly if society is given the incentive to make more of us. Tossing political power into the equation is a dangerously big carrot. It takes 18 years to make a fully functioning Human citizen... With an assembly line running, how many RoboAmericans could you churn out in a day?"



    Quote:
    Tandi gripped her hands in front of her. "So what's going to happen next?"



    Quote:
    "Legally?" Hallie asked, sadly. "By morning tomorrow, the next day at the latest, we'll be hearing proposals in Congress for some kind of "Defense of Citizenship" amendment to the Constitution... And one could pass. In this angry political climate I'm sure of it. The timing couldn't be worse. Nobody wants this to be an issue in the midterm elections. Plus there's the soon-to-be vacant seat on the Supreme Court to consider... This case is going to be synonymous with the phrase "activist judges". Even liberals will want to show they draw the line somewhere."



    Quote:
    "What will that mean... 'An amendment'?"



    Quote:
    "Depends on the wording" Fleabot replied. "But to be ratified, an Amendment needs three-fourths of the state legislatures to approve it. That's a very high hurdle to overcome... Much higher than a simple majority vote. If one goes through, it could only be overturned by another amendment, so if we were ever to regain rights denied us we'd need to reverse public opinion from overwhelming against us to overwhelmingly for us. Do you have any idea how few groups achieve 75% support in this country?"



    Quote:
    "Best case scenario, aside from no amendment at all, is one with some wiggle room in the wording..." Hallie noted. "Something barring us from "all" rights of citizenship rather than "any". Something that would still allow us some forward progress through the legal system but appease the alarmed public until society was ready to fully adapt to synthetic citizenry." She paused. "Worst case would be language defining life as biological. We'd have no basic "human" rights at all."



    Quote:
    "But you said just last month that the polls showed the public wanted us to have basic human rights!" Tandi insisted. "They like us!"



    Quote:
    "Yeah, well... The debate shifted" Joan noted. "Now it's not about whether we should be used for forced labor, but whether we can overrun their political process and make them all second class citizens inside of a generation. A guilty conscience doesn't hold up well against flat-out self preservation."



    Quote:
    Hallie opened her mouth to respond, but ultimately just sighed.



    Quote:
    "...And illegally?" a voice asked lazily from behind them. Catbot regarded them through the welding goggles that served as his eyes as he stretched and climbed to his feet. "In answering what happens next, you started with "Legally..." So what's going to happen illegally?"



    Quote:
    "Things are going to get bad" Hallie stated. "Human extremists are going to lash out. Robosapien extremists are going to exploit it. Artificial Organics Processing Technologies has been selling robosapien pacification armaments and A.I. signature tracking devices to various federal, state and local law enforcement departments for the last two years, but there have been whole shipments of those that have gone off the grid..." She grimaced. "I was watching those very closely, so that worries me." She bit her lip. "Things are going to get ugly."



    Quote:
    "Well then... I've got places to be" the blue robotic cat stated simply, leaping up to the open window. "Nice to see you Legion types are keeping such a close eye on things."



    Quote:
    Fleabot watched him go with a frown. "He was much more personable when I built him" he insisted.



    Quote:
    "He's right though..." Joan noted, heading towards the door. "We need to spread the word to be prepared. I'll leave the political maneuverings to the 'bots that are more... subtle."



    Quote:
    Tandi went to follow Joan out, but paused at the door. "Anna..." she said, a light in her eyes, "She really did it, didn't she?"



    Quote:
    Hallie allowed herself a little smile. "She really did."



    Quote:
    The former sex-bot nodded in return and left.



    Quote:
    "It is quite an accomplishment" Fleabot noted when it was just the two of them left. "Its going to inspire a lot of young robots with the possibilities. There are going to be some great parties tonight in the Mangatown district."



    Quote:
    "Tonight" Hallie agreed.



    Quote:
    He nodded. "So how did you not see this coming?"



    Quote:
    She sighed. "Nobody came to me. Yuki and Dream took her down to the courthouse... You know how those two are... Not a lot of reflection, lots of reflexes."



    Quote:
    "And none of us really made an effort to get close with Anna" Fleabot stated.



    Quote:
    "No" she answered guiltily.



    Quote:
    "Because her various comments about how her brain could think in ways that ours couldn't was annoying."



    Quote:
    "Yeah."



    Quote:
    "Well, who would have thought that being petty would come back to bite us so thoroughly?" the tiny robot noted. "We really should have watched more After-School specials. Hazard of not growing up, I suppose." He looked to the holographic woman. "Anna's going to be a poster girl for the movement... A girl who looks harmless but could demolish a city block."



    Quote:
    "It's... Less than ideal."



    Quote:
    "People are going to think this is another stage of Dream's big proactive plans... The Legion's going to take heat from this. The press is going to have a feeding frenzy on any comment a Legionnaire makes on the subject. Is this herd of cats all going to be heading in the same direction?"



    Quote:
    The A.I. crossed her arms. "I trust in the Legion."



    Quote:
    He nodded. "So what do we do now?"



    Quote:
    Hallie set her jaw. "We help Anna face whatever might be coming... And we get prepared to get hit. Hard."



    Quote:







killer shrike



Posted with Microsoft Internet Explorer 8 4.0; on Windows Vista

Great job summarizing the consequences of Anna's citizenship while also showing the differing perspectives even among her fellow artificial life forms. Everybody had a distinct voice and personality.

I especially liked Fleabot's Afterschool special quip. And I see that organization with the near ominous initials is still a player in the robosapien rights debate.

Looking forward to the Aftershock and Blowback.






Senator Rufus Maxwell



Posted with Microsoft Internet Explorer 6 on Windows 2000

An open letter from Senator Maxwell to the nation


My fellow Americans, you cannot help but have noticed in the news that during the silly season a maverick judge has made a mockery of our flag and country by swearing in a machine as an American citizen.

Now I’m on record in the House and in the press as warning against the sentimental liberal knee-jerk bleeding hearts who want to accord toasters and lawn mowers the same rights and freedoms that our forefather bled and died to win us. The time has come when we must take a stand and say “no more of this madness” before we lose the very democracy that we so love and value.

First off let’s examine the arguments. Pro-citizenship beatniks contend that these robots, these machines made of circuits and wires, are living beings. That they’re sentient and free-willed. That they maybe even have souls. Well for all the talk nobody’s gone and proved it. Nobody can prove it. Sure we can do clever things with what we call artificial intelligence these days but its just clever algorithms and the like offering the illusion of choice and free will. And if nobody’s proved these things are truly even alive and certainly not that they can think and feel and make moral choices like you and me then why are we even talking about giving them rights? We might as well start letting refrigerators start up bank accounts and buy condos.

But if even these parodies of humanity were alive, why does that mean they can be American citizens? We turn back Mexicans at the border every day and deport illegal immigrants because as a nation we cannot afford to take in so many people that will swamp our social welfare systems, add to our unemployment, strain our infrastructure. Why would we want to add in hundred, thousands, millions of manufactured wind-up dolls to take our jobs, our homes, our livelihoods?

And don’t forget, if a robot can be manufactured and sworn in as an American citizen then what’s to stop a million, or fifty million of them being constructed to outvote humans? What’s to stop a fat rich liberal politician ordering up a batch of new mechanical voters for his district to disenfranchise decent folk? What’s to stop machines making other machines that make other machines?

I’m convinced that the Supreme Court will reverse this aberration of an eccentric judge in her irregular court. But that’s not enough. The next time some liberal litigator has a bad PMS day we need legislation to stop them from swearing in some monkey or alien to American citizenship. So here’s what I’m going to do.

Backed by a consortium of concerned businesses and philanthropists I’m launching the Sentient Life Rights Bill. It’ll properly define humans as being organic, born through genetic reproduction, with baseline homo sapiens DNA. Not monsters. Not mutates. Not something cooked up in a mad scientist’s lab or born on an alien planet. Certainly not made up in a machine shop from bits of a Buick. It’ll limit American citizenship to those who can pass the test of being human.

Next up it’ll demand that any simulation of a sentient being, and especially a robot with a so-called artificial intelligence, should be registered and licensed annually just like a car. That means there’ll be a named owner who’s legally responsible for the damage it causes and for keeping it parked right, just like an auto. That owner can buy or sell it just like an auto. And if it breaks the law it can be towed and crushed, just like an auto.

Robots shouldn’t take jobs from humans. It’s bad enough that we’re outsourcing work to foreign countries leaving our own labour force unemployed and our economy weakened. If an owner wants to take his robot to work then it’s the same as him taking his laptop or tool box with him. It’s his choice and his responsibility. But no-one gets paid for bringing their screwdriver along on the job.

So we’ll be making it illegal for a robot to be paid for work, to hold a bank account, to own property, to conduct financial transactions, or to travel without their owner. We’re looking into legislation that will make it illegal to have sex with these machines too, along the lines of the public decency laws about farmyard animals, but we’re still in consultation right now.

Under the new measures each of these bits of equipment will be required to have a self-destruct mechanism implanted. There’ll be a remote detonation code so that law enforcement officers can destroy them, individually or collectively, if they’re a threat to society. We’ll all sleep safer knowing we can trash the robot menace when we need to.

Finally, because so many of these robots are manufactured to look and sound like humans, the law will insist that they all have a distinctive and prominent logo and registration code showing on their faces or whatever passes for one. That way real folks won’t be misled into thinking they’re talking to a real person. It’ll be a destroyable offence for a robot or similar not to display a logo and their owner will receive a fine of up to $20,000 or two years imprisonment.

Now we’re lining up the votes and we’re confident we can pass the Sentient Life Rights Bill. I urge you to contact your elected officials and give your support. Together we can preserve the sanctity of human life and hold back this growing threat to our great nation – for good.

God bless America. May he lend us his might to defeat the robot menace.





Visionary 

Moderator

Member Since: Sat Jan 03, 2004
Posts: 2,131

Posted with Mozilla Firefox 3.6.3 on Windows Vista


    Quote:
    There's one important distinction to the citizenship decision for Anna: It gives her citizenship, but no rights. The judge was fairly careful about that. It's possible a law might be passed that says yes, artificials can be citizens, but they don't have the same rights as humans.

    For Anna specifically, that's important because while she may not be handed the same rights as humans, she can't legally be treated as either property or a foreign combatant anymore.



I don't think a judge is empowered to make that kind of distinction, to essentially write a new classification of citizenship. Being a US citizen means having the rights and responsibilities laid out in the Constitution.

Now, it may be that granting her those rights is on hold via an injunction until the appeals have all run their course, a process that could take years. Legally, the government couldn't grab her and make her disappear, but neither would they have to recognize her full rights.





    Quote:
    Either way, though, it's going to create fallout simply because there are so many who want to maintain the status quo, and there are so many others who want change as long as it's someone on the "inside" who gets it first.


I don't think it's a matter of who gets it first so much as who sets a lasting precedence. There is rarely if ever a popular vote to determine who is going to set off a social movement... circumstances thrust someone into the limelight, and history rolls with it. As noted by Hallie, Anna is maybe less than ideal in that she only *looks* harmless, something symbolically and strategically important to those who would argue that robo-citizenship is a dangerous threat lurking in sheep's clothing. An average robosapien who has no great strength or weapon systems would have probably been a more sympathetic choice for the cause, but that's not how things went.

Nobody who's truly serious about the idea of freedom is going to blame Anna for asking for (and surprisingly getting) it. That's not to say there aren't those on both sides who may want to control or manipulate her into behaving how they'd like her to behave now...




Visionary 

Moderator

Member Since: Sat Jan 03, 2004
Posts: 2,131

Posted with Mozilla Firefox 3.6.3 on Windows Vista





Visionary 

Moderator

Member Since: Sat Jan 03, 2004
Posts: 2,131

Posted with Mozilla Firefox 3.6.3 on Windows Vista


    Quote:
    Great job summarizing the consequences of Anna's citizenship while also showing the differing perspectives even among her fellow artificial life forms. Everybody had a distinct voice and personality.


It occurred to me as I was writing it that none of them are remotely alike physically either, which I hadn't exactly planned but works well to establish how diverse artificial life is in the Parodyverse.



    Quote:
    I especially liked Fleabot's Afterschool special quip. And I see that organization with the near ominous initials is still a player in the robosapien rights debate.


I obviously don't like to rush developments... but I get around to them eventually.



    Quote:
    Looking forward to the Aftershock and Blowback.


It looks like it's already under way, judging from the next person who "responded" to the story...




Visionary 

Moderator
's local paper has editorials that are nearly this scary.

Member Since: Sat Jan 03, 2004
Posts: 2,131

Posted with Mozilla Firefox 3.6.3 on Windows Vista

Hallie was right... that didn't take long at all.

I look forward to hearing more from Senator Maxwell's side of the debate, and I look forward to seeing his proposed bill get the discussion it deserves. I'm quite sure many PV characters would enjoy the chance to discuss politics with the good Senator as we move forward in this great nation of ours...




Mr. Epitome



Posted with Microsoft Internet Explorer 8 4.0; on Windows Vista

An well-written opening salvo to the Great Robo Sapien Rights Debate storyline circa 2010.

Now, the real challenge is, can someone post an argument that attacks the idea of granting robosapiens the right to vote just as vehemently from a "liberal" perspective?




Anime Jason 

Owner

Location: Here
Member Since: Sun Sep 12, 2004
Posts: 2,834


anime.mangacool.net (10.0.255.1)
using Apple Safari 4.0.5 on MacOS X (0.07 points)



    Quote:
    I don't think a judge is empowered to make that kind of distinction, to essentially write a new classification of citizenship. Being a US citizen means having the rights and responsibilities laid out in the Constitution.


There was a misunderstanding in the reply - I didn't mean the judge took away or redefined rights, I mean she simply failed to grant Anna specific rights and just offered her citizenship. What that citizenship means (to an artificial) is up to the lawmakers - they could choose to redefine it so there's one set of rules for humans and another for artificials. Anna's rights change if the laws change. The important thing right now is that the government can't arrest her with the claim she's illegal anymore.

The clever part of that is the judge's decision will be harder to overturn that way because it doesn't grant any very specific rights that can be overturned easily. At any appeal, that's what Arnie can argue - that the decision is face-value and makes no claims about Anna's rights.



    Quote:
    Now, it may be that granting her those rights is on hold via an injunction until the appeals have all run their course, a process that could take years. Legally, the government couldn't grab her and make her disappear, but neither would they have to recognize her full rights.


The problem with appeals is they have to prove there's no legal basis for the decision, or that the procedure was flawed. Judges generally have the power to swear in citizens that meet simple criteria, and marry people that meet certain criteria. Any appeal would have to prove that Anna didn't meet at least one of the requirements, or that procedure wasn't followed.

Side note: If Anna would have tried to marry for citizenship, one of the requirements is a blood screening - since she can't get one (her body fluid isn't compatible with human blood tests) *that* would be grounds for an appeal.

It's basically a gap in the system the judge took advantage of, it's something lawmakers never foresaw being used that way. They'll probably fix it by passing a new law, but in the mean time it's working for the purpose it was intended for.



    Quote:
    I don't think it's a matter of who gets it first so much as who sets a lasting precedence. There is rarely if ever a popular vote to determine who is going to set off a social movement... circumstances thrust someone into the limelight, and history rolls with it. As noted by Hallie, Anna is maybe less than ideal in that she only *looks* harmless, something symbolically and strategically important to those who would argue that robo-citizenship is a dangerous threat lurking in sheep's clothing. An average robosapien who has no great strength or weapon systems would have probably been a more sympathetic choice for the cause, but that's not how things went.


Anna's personality had a *lot* to do with getting citizenship. She didn't speak out of turn, or get angry, or do anything basically that a scared human in court wouldn't do. Her behavior was familiar enough that it generated a lot of sympathy vs the faceless and unsympathetic U.S. Government, which people love to hate.





Congresswoman Alma Marshall



Posted with Microsoft Internet Explorer 6 on Windows 2000

A Public Statement from Congresswoman Alma Marshall on the Robot Issue
From a speech at the Stamford Club


It’s called slutware TM. It’s a set of proprietary programming that makes a human-looking robot exhibit simulated sexual responses. You can go to Pervo Industries or any number of other Japanese and mid-Asian tech firms and order it along with a lifelike android of the gender, color, vital statistics and genitalia you specify from their cataog.

You want your robot to be shaped like a pornstar, or a movie actress, or a nine-year-old girl or boy? No problem. You want your robot to look like your ex-wife, or your next door neighbour, or your mother, or yourself? Just write the check. You can have the robot shipped right to your home, and then you can program its slutware and have it behave just how you want. I hear the shame and rape settings are really popular.

So yes, the use of robots is a womens issue, and it’s a civil rights issue, and it’s an issue of public decency. It’s a defence issue too, since the government’s proposing to spend billions of dollars that could help Medicare and state schools into buying killing toys to shoot other killing toys and espionage units with slutware TM capabilities to seduce third world politicians.

We’re worried now about the guns in our society. We struggle to limit the free use of arms that cause so many deaths and crimes in our cities. How much worse is that getting now with the unregulated manufacture of combat-grade killing machines with no safeguards at all? You need a three-day waiting period to get a streetsweeper. You can buy an ‘industrial’ grade fighting robot right out of the showroom for cash. Robot-related crime rose by 69% last year alone. Unregulated robot sales will be the next serious challenge to keeping our neighbourhoods safe.

And the so-called robots rights movement is a gift to the right. By setting up a straw person to knock down in this sapient AI debate they try to undermine the genuine needs of genuine disenfranchised minorities. It’s easy to win a case that robots aren’t people, aren’t even second class citizens. When that’s used to argue that real men and women aren’t equal and deserving of rights because they’re gay, or from a minority ethnic background, or they’re disabled, then we have a problem.

Robots aren’t bad per se. Pretending robots are people is the problem. Robots can deliver us from drudgery, can release those in economic wage-slavery from drudge tasks and allow them to reach their full potential. But when we try to accord robots the rights of actual people – or try to prove that they have some kind of “soul” in an outdated Judeo/Christian belief system – then we’ve surely missed the point.

For that reason I’ll be supporting the Sentient Life Rights Bill, but I’ll be tagging amendments. We’ll be looking to regulate robot ownership far more closely, perhaps with a tax on registration. We’ll be seeking the right to insist on health and safety inspections to agreed standards and an annual safety test. We’ll impose software limits to prevent the simulated ‘free will’ decisions caused by unpredictable and little understood heuristic algorithms. We’ll demand green alternative power sources for all new manufactured androids. We’ll tighten labor laws to ensure there’s no loss to union employees from use of robots. We’ll insist on judicial oversight of robot production.

If we have a respect for humanity, for the rights of women, for the sanctity of the individual, for the safety of our homes and schools and workplaces then we have to take a long legislative look at the robot issue amongst us. The answer is a new law and rigorous enforcement, proper regulation, and appropriate federal oversight. The answer is a proper contextualising of robots amongst us.

The answer is that robots can never be us. We have to preserve and protect people from robots programmed to think they want to be us.






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"In what is being hailed by many as a triumph for the disenfranchised and powerless everywhere, on Friday a young, attractive, white girl left the seclusion of her gated, multi-million dollar Parodiopolis mansion home to be sworn in as the newest U.S. Citizen... all while carrying a multitude of concealed weapons on her person. Somehow, against all odds, I think she'll manage to fit right in." --Jon Newhart, The Nightly Show



Quick, what do you and Zoxxon Oil have in common?

Well, unless you also made a profit of $45 billion last year (and yet didn't have to pay a single dime of income tax to the U.S. Government), then that's probably not it.

No, what you have in common is that, after the Supreme Court ruling earlier this year on Campaign Finance Restrictions, you both have equal rights to participate in the political process. Oh, sure... that $45 billion may give Zoxxon a slight advantage in the political arena, but that's really just your fault for not working hard enough to compete.

Want even more good news? Last Friday, a judge in Parodiopolis opened the door for the individual products of major corporations to be your equal as well. In a well publicized ruling, Judge Nancy Connor granted a robosapien identified only as "Anna" the rights and privilages of full U.S. Citizenship. "Anna", not surprisingly, is the direct product of the country's military-industrial complex, a weapon of mass destruction built to escalate an international meta-human arms race. But hey, thank god she's an American, right?

It's all part of an alarming trend to heap more power onto corporations who had already secured a disproportional amount over the course of the Bush administration. Despite the Tea-Bagger's lamentations against the rise of "socialism" and a "spreading of the wealth", the fact remains that the money (and therefore the power) has never been so consolidated at the top percentiles of the economy as it is today. The middle class has been consistently squeezed out over the last five decades, leading to a wealthy elite overseeing a teaming lower class that lives with no hope of ever breaching that gap. The American worker is beaten, broken.

Thankfully, here come the corporations with the solution: Build a better American! Yes, now they can churn out voters to their own factory specifications, rather than spend the time and money trying to convince the rest of us to do as they say. Studies indicate that robosapiens show a remarkably high level of brand loyalty in their purchasing habits, almost as if they were programmed in their preferences. But of course, any major corporations building these new citizens wouldn't do that, would they? And they certainly wouldn't let them come off the assembly line predisposed to a certain political thinking...

Sure, the environmental impact of building a new population would be monstrous... even the most responsibly built robosapien models use heavy amounts of contaminants such as lead, cadmium, beryllium, mercury, and brominated flame retardants. And they require constant upgrades and replacement parts, which... while making them excellent consumers of products and a constant source of revenue for their makers, leaves the mounting problem of disposal of these substances. But really, these cancerous chemicals are only a problem for economically poor organic citizens who have to live near the dumping grounds. The good news though is that those citizens will have an equal right under the law to challenge the dumping of those wastes. They just need to overcome the billion dollar corporations doing the dumping, and the countless number of loyal voters those corporations flood the electorate with.

Obviously, this kind of corporate free reign must be avoided at all costs. Instead of demonizing the welfare mothers who are receiving pennies of our tax dollars, we need to look to the major conglomerates who are devouring our salaries and milking our investments to line their own pockets. The Bush Administration stripped away all the regulations holding them back, and we paid the price while they walked away richer than ever. Now they've moved onto building themselves up even further with new rights that will make restraining them again, or ever holding them the slightest bit accountable, utterly impossible.

This kind of movement cannot be allowed to go forward if any sense of Democracy for the common man is to survive. It's past time we recognize this surge for what it is, and pull the plug on it before it's too late.

I'm all for building a better America... but what's happening here is simply Corporate America moving forward with our planned obsolescence.





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Member Since: Sat Jan 03, 2004
Posts: 2,131

Posted with Mozilla Firefox 3.6.3 on Windows Vista


Good stuff, and a fine entry to shrike's "liberal" challenge. This one is scarier to me because it takes a much more reasonable tone while calling for just as chilling a course of action (or even more-so, what with the "anti-free will" amendment)




killer shrike



Posted with Microsoft Internet Explorer 8 4.0; on Windows Vista





killer shrike thinks liberals would still call them "robo sapiens" so as to not appear Un-PC



Posted with Microsoft Internet Explorer 8 4.0; on Windows Vista





Visionary 

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Member Since: Sat Jan 03, 2004
Posts: 2,131

Posted with Mozilla Firefox 3.6.3 on Windows Vista





HH



Posted with Microsoft Internet Explorer 6 on Windows 2000


    Quote:



    Quote:
    "In what is being hailed by many as a triumph for the disenfranchised and powerless everywhere, on Friday a young, attractive, white girl left the seclusion of her gated, multi-million dollar Parodiopolis mansion home to be sworn in as the newest U.S. Citizen... all while carrying a multitude of concealed weapons on her person. Somehow, against all odds, I think she'll manage to fit right in." --Jon Newhart, The Nightly Show



    Quote:
    Quick, what do you and Zoxxon Oil have in common?



    Quote:
    Well, unless you also made a profit of $45 billion last year (and yet didn't have to pay a single dime of income tax to the U.S. Government), then that's probably not it.



    Quote:
    No, what you have in common is that, after the Supreme Court ruling earlier this year on Campaign Finance Restrictions, you both have equal rights to participate in the political process. Oh, sure... that $45 billion may give Zoxxon a slight advantage in the political arena, but that's really just your fault for not working hard enough to compete.



    Quote:
    Want even more good news? Last Friday, a judge in Parodiopolis opened the door for the individual products of major corporations to be your equal as well. In a well publicized ruling, Judge Nancy Connor granted a robosapien identified only as "Anna" the rights and privilages of full U.S. Citizenship. "Anna", not surprisingly, is the direct product of the country's military-industrial complex, a weapon of mass destruction built to escalate an international meta-human arms race. But hey, thank god she's an American, right?



    Quote:
    It's all part of an alarming trend to heap more power onto corporations who had already secured a disproportional amount over the course of the Bush administration. Despite the Tea-Bagger's lamentations against the rise of "socialism" and a "spreading of the wealth", the fact remains that the money (and therefore the power) has never been so consolidated at the top percentiles of the economy as it is today. The middle class has been consistently squeezed out over the last five decades, leading to a wealthy elite overseeing a teaming lower class that lives with no hope of ever breaching that gap. The American worker is beaten, broken.



    Quote:
    Thankfully, here come the corporations with the solution: Build a better American! Yes, now they can churn out voters to their own factory specifications, rather than spend the time and money trying to convince the rest of us to do as they say. Studies indicate that robosapiens show a remarkably high level of brand loyalty in their purchasing habits, almost as if they were programmed in their preferences. But of course, any major corporations building these new citizens wouldn't do that, would they? And they certainly wouldn't let them come off the assembly line predisposed to a certain political thinking...



    Quote:
    Sure, the environmental impact of building a new population would be monstrous... even the most responsibly built robosapien models use heavy amounts of contaminants such as lead, cadmium, beryllium, mercury, and brominated flame retardants. And they require constant upgrades and replacement parts, which... while making them excellent consumers of products and a constant source of revenue for their makers, leaves the mounting problem of disposal of these substances. But really, these cancerous chemicals are only a problem for economically poor organic citizens who have to live near the dumping grounds. The good news though is that those citizens will have an equal right under the law to challenge the dumping of those wastes. They just need to overcome the billion dollar corporations doing the dumping, and the countless number of loyal voters those corporations flood the electorate with.



    Quote:
    Obviously, this kind of corporate free reign must be avoided at all costs. Instead of demonizing the welfare mothers who are receiving pennies of our tax dollars, we need to look to the major conglomerates who are devouring our salaries and milking our investments to line their own pockets. The Bush Administration stripped away all the regulations holding them back, and we paid the price while they walked away richer than ever. Now they've moved onto building themselves up even further with new rights that will make restraining them again, or ever holding them the slightest bit accountable, utterly impossible.



    Quote:
    This kind of movement cannot be allowed to go forward if any sense of Democracy for the common man is to survive. It's past time we recognize this surge for what it is, and pull the plug on it before it's too late.



    Quote:
    I'm all for building a better America... but what's happening here is simply Corporate America moving forward with our planned obsolescence.



    Quote:







Hatman


Member Since: Thu Jan 01, 1970
Posts: 618

Posted with Apple Safari 4.0.3 on MacOS X





Hatman


Member Since: Thu Jan 01, 1970
Posts: 618

Posted with Apple Safari 4.0.3 on MacOS X





Hatman


Member Since: Thu Jan 01, 1970
Posts: 618

Posted with Apple Safari 4.0.3 on MacOS X

...both of these politicians say you cannot prove that robots have a soul, and use that as a key component of their arguments, yet really there is no scientific way to prove that humans have souls either.

~Hat~




Hatman


Member Since: Thu Jan 01, 1970
Posts: 618

Posted with Apple Safari 4.0.3 on MacOS X





HH



Posted with Microsoft Internet Explorer 6 on Windows 2000





Visionary 

Moderator

Member Since: Sat Jan 03, 2004
Posts: 2,131

Posted with Mozilla Firefox 3.6.3 on Windows XP





Visionary 

Moderator

Member Since: Sat Jan 03, 2004
Posts: 2,131

Posted with Mozilla Firefox 3.6.3 on Windows XP





Visionary 

Moderator

Member Since: Sat Jan 03, 2004
Posts: 2,131

Posted with Mozilla Firefox 3.6.3 on Windows XP





Visionary 

Moderator

Member Since: Sat Jan 03, 2004
Posts: 2,131

Posted with Mozilla Firefox 3.6.3 on Windows XP





CrazySugarFreakBoy!


Member Since: Sun Jan 04, 2004
Posts: 1,235

Posted with Microsoft Internet Explorer 7 4.0; on Windows Vista






CrazySugarFreakBoy!


Member Since: Sun Jan 04, 2004
Posts: 1,235

Posted with Microsoft Internet Explorer 7 4.0; on Windows Vista






CrazySugarFreakBoy!


Member Since: Sun Jan 04, 2004
Posts: 1,235

Posted with Microsoft Internet Explorer 7 4.0; on Windows Vista






CrazySugarFreakBoy!


Member Since: Sun Jan 04, 2004
Posts: 1,235

Posted with Microsoft Internet Explorer 7 4.0; on Windows Vista






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